Is it OK for everybody that I just take all the macros and INC-files I
can find (from your pages, from this newsgroup, ...) and put them on
my site (of course giving the creator the credits) to make one large
(enormous might be a better word) collection?  Or does someone
disagree with this?

ZK
http://www.crosswinds.net/~povplace

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On Tue, 28 Mar 2000 19:25:40 +0200, Zeger Knaepen
<ZEG### [at] studentkuleuvenacbe> wrote:

>Is it OK for everybody that I just take all the macros and INC-files I
>can find (from your pages, from this newsgroup, ...) and put them on
>my site (of course giving the creator the credits) to make one large
>(enormous might be a better word) collection?  Or does someone
>disagree with this?

I hope the rest of the TAG members won't get mad at me for disclosing
that a similar project has been discussed among us as a possible to-do
in the future. If you could do our job, that would be great :)


Peter Popov ICQ : 15002700
Personal e-mail : pet### [at] usanet
TAG      e-mail : pet### [at] tagpovrayorg

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On Tue, 28 Mar 2000 23:03:58 +0300, Peter Popov wrote:
>On Tue, 28 Mar 2000 19:25:40 +0200, Zeger Knaepen
><ZEG### [at] studentkuleuvenacbe> wrote:
>
>>Is it OK for everybody that I just take all the macros and INC-files I
>>can find (from your pages, from this newsgroup, ...) and put them on
>>my site (of course giving the creator the credits) to make one large
>>(enormous might be a better word) collection?  Or does someone
>>disagree with this?
>
>I hope the rest of the TAG members won't get mad at me for disclosing
>that a similar project has been discussed among us as a possible to-do
>in the future. If you could do our job, that would be great :)

Doesn't this run afoul of copyright?  Just saying "speak up if you have
a problem with this" isn't good enough, as those who posted the macros
in question may no longer be active here.  I think you'll have to contact
each and every macro author to get permission.

FWIW, Zeger, any include files or macros I've posted here are free for 
the taking; just don't file off the serial numbers and try to pass them 
off as your own (not that I think you would.)

-- 
These are my opinions.  I do NOT speak for the POV-Team.
The superpatch: http://www2.fwi.com/~parkerr/superpatch/
My other stuff: http://www2.fwi.com/~parkerr/traces.html

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That's such a problem.  It would be great to have a one-stop source for
everything and yet the permission issue is always there getting in the way.  I
only share anything I have to begin with on the notion it might dissolve into
oblivion (hopefully the opposite) without care of whether anything's linked back
to me at all or not.  But I can understand the good reasoning about that not
being universally accepted policy since how would a person ever know if
something is "patented" to use a descriptive word for it.  Well, then again
that's up to the person putting something out in the first place.  If explicitly
"copyrighted" it should probably be treated as such.  Where I get confused is
when people drop stuff out here and there that doesn't even have a name
associated with it much less a email address or (c) in it somewhere.
Based on that alone I'd say you could gather up everything you can find and
because if something does have any identifying stamps put in then it should be
perfectly all right to get and redistribute (it carries identification anyhow).
The only stop would be if the point of origin covers all content as copyrighted
or even non-distributable (huh?).  Rather, non-RE-distributable...
I believe it's a confusing mess all to do with what is considered allowable,
said or unsaid.
The point being, do people intend their uploads to become downloads.  Quite a
simple solution until the objects in question are meant to be downloaded from
specific places only.  This is going to be the main factor.

Bob

"Ron Parker" <ron### [at] povrayorg> wrote in message
news:38e1133f@news.povray.org...
| On Tue, 28 Mar 2000 23:03:58 +0300, Peter Popov wrote:
| >On Tue, 28 Mar 2000 19:25:40 +0200, Zeger Knaepen
| ><ZEG### [at] studentkuleuvenacbe> wrote:
| >
| >>Is it OK for everybody that I just take all the macros and INC-files I
| >>can find (from your pages, from this newsgroup, ...) and put them on
| >>my site (of course giving the creator the credits) to make one large
| >>(enormous might be a better word) collection?  Or does someone
| >>disagree with this?
| >
| >I hope the rest of the TAG members won't get mad at me for disclosing
| >that a similar project has been discussed among us as a possible to-do
| >in the future. If you could do our job, that would be great :)
|
| Doesn't this run afoul of copyright?  Just saying "speak up if you have
| a problem with this" isn't good enough, as those who posted the macros
| in question may no longer be active here.  I think you'll have to contact
| each and every macro author to get permission.
|
| FWIW, Zeger, any include files or macros I've posted here are free for
| the taking; just don't file off the serial numbers and try to pass them
| off as your own (not that I think you would.)
|
| --
| These are my opinions.  I do NOT speak for the POV-Team.
| The superpatch: http://www2.fwi.com/~parkerr/superpatch/
| My other stuff: http://www2.fwi.com/~parkerr/traces.html

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Ron Parker wrote in message <38e1133f@news.povray.org>...
>Doesn't this run afoul of copyright?  Just saying "speak up if you have
>a problem with this" isn't good enough, as those who posted the macros
>in question may no longer be active here.  I think you'll have to contact
>each and every macro author to get permission.


As it says in the help files for the include files on my site, you can do
this as long as you notify me (so I can make sure you have the latest
version).

Mark

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> Ron Parker wrote in message <38e1133f@news.povray.org>...
> >Doesn't this run afoul of copyright?  Just saying "speak up if you have
> >a problem with this" isn't good enough, as those who posted the macros
> >in question may no longer be active here.  I think you'll have to contact
> >each and every macro author to get permission.

There's an old and rather cynical piece of wisdom that says it's easier
to apologize for something than it is to get permission in the first place.

My advice would be to go ahead and compile such a collection. If no one
complains, it doesn't matter whether what you're doing is "right" or
"wrong". Sure, that's morally bankrupt, but we don't exactly live in a
perfect world to start with.. and it won't end if someone has to ask
that their files be taken down.

-- 
Xplo Eristotle
http://start.at/xplosion/

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Xplo Eristotle wrote:

> There's an old and rather cynical piece of wisdom that says it's easier
> to apologize for something than it is to get permission in the first place.
> 
> My advice would be to go ahead and compile such a collection. If no one
> complains, it doesn't matter whether what you're doing is "right" or
> "wrong". Sure, that's morally bankrupt, but we don't exactly live in a
> perfect world to start with.. and it won't end if someone has to ask
> that their files be taken down.

That's morally bankrupt.

 From the perspective of collecting material from this news server it
may not be as much of an issue. Taking material from peoples web pages,
without asking, however is another issue altogether.

Many people put in a lot of time and effort publishing their web pages
and offer some POV-Ray related materials to attract visitors to their
site. If you collect all of the resources available from the hundreds
of sites out there, and put it into one monster collection, there will
be no reason for people to visit the other web pages. Besides making
a lot of web pages instantly obsolete I am sure you also run the risk
of hurting the feeling of more than just a few people who enjoy having
regular visitors to their sites.

I personally never would, and never have, put someone else's material
on my own web page without first asking permission. I would consider
it in very poor taste to do so and it would show that a person has
very little regard or respect for copyright law. I think there is a
strong moral justification to contact the owner of the material for
permission prior to inclusion into any such collection.

-- 
Ken Tyler -  1300+ Povray, Graphics, 3D Rendering, and Raytracing Links:
http://home.pacbell.net/tylereng/index.html http://www.povray.org/links/

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Ken wrote:

> Many people put in a lot of time and effort publishing their web pages
> and offer some POV-Ray related materials to attract visitors to their
> site. If you collect all of the resources available from the hundreds
> of sites out there, and put it into one monster collection, there will
> be no reason for people to visit the other web pages. Besides making
> a lot of web pages instantly obsolete I am sure you also run the risk
> of hurting the feeling of more than just a few people who enjoy having
> regular visitors to their sites.

Agreed. People who write complex macros usually make sure that they are presented
in the best possible form, with example files, help files, related
pictures/animations, version history and so on. This is a form of service for the
"customer" that is an important part of the work of writing macros. I have always
supported the idea of having a central repository for macros and other
pov-related stuff, which could be very practical indeed, but I think that this
kind of job must be done right, with a proper presentation of the material
offered that requires not only the agreement but also the cooperation of the
author. I have come across this type of "bundling" and often the poor
organisation didn't make it as useful as it should have been.

G.

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You're right.  But what about just linking to the files on their
site?  
(It's also easier for me to do)

ZK
http://www.crosswinds.net/~povplace

Ken wrote:
> 
> That's morally bankrupt.
> 
>  From the perspective of collecting material from this news server it
> may not be as much of an issue. Taking material from peoples web pages,
> without asking, however is another issue altogether.
> 
> Many people put in a lot of time and effort publishing their web pages
> and offer some POV-Ray related materials to attract visitors to their
> site. If you collect all of the resources available from the hundreds
> of sites out there, and put it into one monster collection, there will
> be no reason for people to visit the other web pages. Besides making
> a lot of web pages instantly obsolete I am sure you also run the risk
> of hurting the feeling of more than just a few people who enjoy having
> regular visitors to their sites.
> 
> I personally never would, and never have, put someone else's material
> on my own web page without first asking permission. I would consider
> it in very poor taste to do so and it would show that a person has
> very little regard or respect for copyright law. I think there is a
> strong moral justification to contact the owner of the material for
> permission prior to inclusion into any such collection.
> 
> --
> Ken Tyler -  1300+ Povray, Graphics, 3D Rendering, and Raytracing Links:
> http://home.pacbell.net/tylereng/index.html http://www.povray.org/links/

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"Gilles Tran" <tra### [at] inapginrafr> wrote in message
news:38E1C5CE.CF5E9960@inapg.inra.fr...
| Ken wrote:
|
| > Many people put in a lot of time and effort publishing their web pages
| > and offer some POV-Ray related materials to attract visitors to their
| > site. If you collect all of the resources available from the hundreds
| > of sites out there, and put it into one monster collection, there will
| > be no reason for people to visit the other web pages. Besides making
| > a lot of web pages instantly obsolete I am sure you also run the risk
| > of hurting the feeling of more than just a few people who enjoy having
| > regular visitors to their sites.
|
| Agreed. People who write complex macros usually make sure that they are
presented
| in the best possible form, with example files, help files, related
| pictures/animations, version history and so on. This is a form of service for
the
| "customer" that is an important part of the work of writing macros. I have
always
| supported the idea of having a central repository for macros and other
| pov-related stuff, which could be very practical indeed, but I think that this
| kind of job must be done right, with a proper presentation of the material
| offered that requires not only the agreement but also the cooperation of the
| author. I have come across this type of "bundling" and often the poor
| organisation didn't make it as useful as it should have been.
|
| G.

I'm agreeing too, it's obvious that centralization is a great way to do things
of this type.  That's why I see it as such "a rock and a hard place".  I can't
imagine anyone not wanting such a thing, and yet everyone wants to have their
personal space as well, a place to call home on the WWW.
Granted there's a large variation on the reasoning behind personal web pages
more than just ego but there's such a large sharing concept that goes on that it
becomes like a park where flowers are picked because of a lack of Do Not signs
or even more so as if there are signs which say Have a Flower.
Anyway it's not something I think can easily be figured out one way or the other
unless there are rules written in stone.  You could argue that there's a golden
rule of sorts but which one is it?  The one that says Keep Out or the one that
says Nature Trail (hope you'll forgive me for my attempt at metaphor).
Again all I'm saying is that if it's not written down on a web page or within a
downloaded file someplace then it's not possible to discern well enough and
therefore the trail is most likely to be walked.
To the original message posted, the question being put to the several people
that might see it here and even fewer who respond isn't going to get anywhere
about this idea.
The only reasonable option is to go looking for people everywhere not just here
and if not the people look for the macros, includes, scene files, etc. and see
if they are gatherable by the reckoning of what's said at the places they
originate from.  A lot of work to do but I see no other feasible way.  Like
emailing around and promoting this web page of stuff in the usual manner.  Ah,
and then there comes spamming....
I just can't imagine this ever being easy to do one way or the other.  Got my
well-wishing though.

P.S.
The POV-Ray Ring is about as close to a nice compromise as it gets and I can
only roam from site to site just so much each time I go looking around.  Not
only that, first the people have to join up with that to begin with and I'm sure
everyone doesn't nearly do so.  Anyway, this always brings up what I believe is
very likely to be a frustration of many people.  www.povray.org is what you'd
expect to be THE place of places but it too can't be simply because of the
tendency to scatter or not bother to try and merge.  Makes it all the more
obvious how little of my own stuff I manage to get out onto the 'net.

Bob

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