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Warp wrote:
>
> Emacs supports all that and more.
Great, we just get one of the oldest holy wars available!
BTW, doesn't Emacs stand for Escape-Meta-Alt-Ctrl-Shift?
--
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\/\/ \__/ /_ /_ |__ \_ |\
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Ole Laursen wrote:
>
> So let us reply: from the POV of a VI user, Emacs is of course so much
> more user-friendly that it must seem like a WYSIWYG system. I mean,
> with Emacs you can actually edit documents [1].
Once it has finished loading, that is. But I guess every EMACS user
has a 1 GHz proc, 1 GB mem and 100 MB/sec harddrive, so it doesn't
matter too much.
> AFAIK the only thing
> VI can do is playing music with the built-in speaker, see
>
> http://www.dina.dk/~abraham/religion/vi-music
Mmmm, this can be improved. I'll do a plugin to interface to
TiMidity, one day. After all, Vim is Vi Improved.
> However, introducing such derogative terms as "WYSIWYG" in this forum
> is of course only to be frowned upon. Tsk, tsk. This just shows us the
> mental level VI users in general have reached. (I mean, give your
> 5-year-old child a computer to 10.000 bucks, and he will throw it out
> and play with the case instead.)
Which lets me play with the rest (CPU, RAM, disk). Fine.
> [1] This is, of course, only the least part of what The only True
> Editor is capable of. As Per Abrahamsen once said (more or less), an
> "editor" is the term for everything that isn't part of the OS.
And for Vim, the OS is everything that is not part of the editor.
--
Adrien Beau - adr### [at] free fr - http://adrien.beau.free.fr
Mes propos n'engagent que moi et en aucun cas mes employeurs
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Adrien Beau <adr### [at] sycomorefr> wrote:
: Suffice to say that I don't think one is better than the other.
That's right.
And to avoid giving the impression that I love emacs, I have to note that
although I said that you *CAN* do those things with emacs, I didn't mention
that it's *ANNOYINGLY DIFFICULT* to do so.
It took me no less than *TWO YEARS* to configure emacs to the extent that
it is nowadays, where I like it.
Emacs is far from user-friendly. However, it's incredibly powerful, which
makes it a good editor for hardcore unix hackers... :)
--
#macro N(D,I)#if(I<6)cylinder{M()#local D[I]=div(D[I],104);M().5,2pigment{
rgb M()}}N(D,(D[I]>99?I:I+1))#end#end#macro M()<mod(D[I],13)-6,mod(div(D[I
],13),8)-3,10>#end blob{N(array[6]{11117333955,
7382340,3358,3900569407,970,4254934330},0)}// - Warp -
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Francois Dispot <woz### [at] club-internetfr> wrote:
: BTW, doesn't Emacs stand for Escape-Meta-Alt-Ctrl-Shift?
By default. But of course you can configure the key shortcuts in any way
you want (in fact, I have made many remappings; for example I have alt-x
to quit emacs besides the ^XC).
--
#macro N(D,I)#if(I<6)cylinder{M()#local D[I]=div(D[I],104);M().5,2pigment{
rgb M()}}N(D,(D[I]>99?I:I+1))#end#end#macro M()<mod(D[I],13)-6,mod(div(D[I
],13),8)-3,10>#end blob{N(array[6]{11117333955,
7382340,3358,3900569407,970,4254934330},0)}// - Warp -
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On Fri, 31 Aug 2001 11:35:50 +0200, Adrien Beau wrote:
>Ole Laursen wrote:
>>
>> So let us reply: from the POV of a VI user, Emacs is of course so much
>> more user-friendly that it must seem like a WYSIWYG system. I mean,
>> with Emacs you can actually edit documents [1].
>
>Once it has finished loading, that is. But I guess every EMACS user
>has a 1 GHz proc, 1 GB mem and 100 MB/sec harddrive, so it doesn't
>matter too much.
Not so, I only have a 266 with 224 M RAM, and don't find emacs a drain.
Sometimes when I've had the same large file open for about five days or
more emacs can get a bit sluggish, but closing it and opening it again
solves the problem. I'm not even sure that this is an emacs problem,
it could well be Netscape, as when this problem occurs I tend to shut
all open windows and restart X.
--
Cheers
Steve email mailto:ste### [at] zeroppsuklinuxnet
%HAV-A-NICEDAY Error not enough coffee 0 pps.
web http://www.zeropps.uklinux.net/
or http://start.at/zero-pps
10:44pm up 49 days, 49 min, 2 users, load average: 1.02, 1.03, 1.05
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> > So let us reply: from the POV of a VI user, Emacs is of course so much
> > more user-friendly that it must seem like a WYSIWYG system. I mean,
> > with Emacs you can actually edit documents [1].
>
> Once it has finished loading, that is.
I don't get your point?
I run "emacs &" in the nearest terminal window, go feeding my aquarium
fish, visit the bathroom, eat an apple, play a little Bach tune on the
piano, take a shower, read a book etc., and when I get back, I can use
Emacs _instantly_. I don't wait as much as a nanosecond. Not even one.
> Mmmm, this can be improved. I'll do a plugin to interface to
> TiMidity, one day. After all, Vim is Vi Improved.
Improved in what way? The only thing I can think of that would improve
VI, would be a welcome screen like
Welcome to VI!
To quit this program, press any key. Then type "emacs" and hit
return.
Not that it would benefit me, really. I'm an old-timer here, I've
known the value of ":q" for ages - thing is, it doesn't always seem to
work (not that that surprises me considering the name of the program),
that's when the music making starts.
> > (I mean, give your 5-year-old child a computer to 10.000 bucks,
> > and he will throw it out and play with the case instead.)
>
> Which lets me play with the rest (CPU, RAM, disk). Fine.
I can see the headlines:
FATHER KILLER SET FREE
Today true justice spoke when the child of an infamous VI user has
been set free in spite of his confession of torturing and later
murdering his father with a table spoon. As the judge concluded,
"... and clearly this is an example of a child who never got any
chance in life, who's father had travelled so deeply into insanity
that he spent all his time with an activitity called the v-i,
apparently a sort of primitive music composing software -"
At this point, someone from the audience shouted, apparently to
demystify the purpose of the v-i software, "try M-x viper-mode"
which the judge did on the nearby running notebook. This was,
however, followed by horror and screams such as "HERECY, HERECY!",
"C-g C-g C-g", "C-x C-c NOW!", and eventually, "TURN OFF THE DAMN
THING!".
After the suspended sentence, two months of imprisonment, the crying
mother left the court room together with her son. Her last words to
the press, "...and he was just trying to find out how to edit the
list of christmas presents to our son", did unfortunately not help
us find out what exactly the mysterious so-called v-i software is
supposed to do...
--
Ole Laursen
http://sunsite.dk/olau/
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> BTW, doesn't Emacs stand for Escape-Meta-Alt-Ctrl-Shift?
Not true!
I have Alt and Meta on the same key, and seldomly have to use escape,
so that would more be sort of like Meta-Ctrl-Shift, thank you!
Actually, Emacs stands for
Emacs Makes All Computers NOT Slow
but "Emacns" turned out to be too difficult to pronounce, so it was
decided to leave out the 'n' from the abbreviation.
--
Ole Laursen
http://sunsite.dk/olau/
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> And to avoid giving the impression that I love emacs, I have to note that
> although I said that you *CAN* do those things with emacs, I didn't mention
> that it's *ANNOYINGLY DIFFICULT* to do so.
I think the worst problem is that it requires one to grasp Lisp, which
not many people with a DOS/Windows background do. So it's not just
about learning how to customize it, but also about learning a new
language, which is _very_ different from Pascal, C/C++, Basic etc.
Fortunately, a lot of other people have already written a ton of small
customizations to make Emacs behave more intelligent in particular
editing situations. That's what so nice about it - if I'm editing a
bulleted list like the following
- this is the first point
I want to make
- and this is the second
Emacs will automatically break the lines for me and insert correct
indentations (I just told it to make short lines) instead of producing
garbage like this
- this is the first point
I want to make
- and this is the second
I know no other mail/news agents capable of doing that. All these
small niceties is what makes Emacs so invaluable - over 10 years of
polishing and fine tuning in one editor.
> It took me no less than *TWO YEARS* to configure emacs to the extent that
> it is nowadays, where I like it.
But for you it must also have been a battle uphill. When I switched to
GNU/Linux and Emacs I simply threw out all the keybindings I had
memorized from my DOS/Windows days and started all over with the Emacs
tutorial. So within a few weeks I was more productive than I've ever
been with any DOS or Windows editor.
Cursor navigation with C-f, C-b etc. is extremely fast once you get
the hang of it. Your changes are quite radical in the way they effect
some basic assumptions in Emacs.
> Emacs is far from user-friendly. However, it's incredibly powerful, which
> makes it a good editor for hardcore unix hackers... :)
One of the things I'm looking forward to in the upcoming v. 21 is a
more intuitive design with e.g. a toolbar. Personally I'm going to
turn it off immidiately, but it'll make it a lot easier for the rest
of my family who probably at one point are going to make the
transition to Linux, and will be needing an editor.
--
Ole Laursen
http://sunsite.dk/olau/
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And I thought that it stood for Editing MACro System
Francois Dispot wrote:
>
> Warp wrote:
> >
> > Emacs supports all that and more.
>
> Great, we just get one of the oldest holy wars available!
> BTW, doesn't Emacs stand for Escape-Meta-Alt-Ctrl-Shift?
>
> --
> __ __ __ __ _
> | | / \ / / |_ / |/
> \/\/ \__/ /_ /_ |__ \_ |\
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Adrien Beau wrote:
> Ole Laursen wrote:
> >
> > So let us reply: from the POV of a VI user, Emacs is of course so much
> > more user-friendly that it must seem like a WYSIWYG system. I mean,
> > with Emacs you can actually edit documents [1].
>
> Once it has finished loading, that is. But I guess every EMACS user
> has a 1 GHz proc, 1 GB mem and 100 MB/sec harddrive, so it doesn't
> matter too much.
Now now. Watch the exageration.
For working at home I used to run on a 133 MHz machine with 64MB Ram. I
seem to recall that my emacs instances when running the POV-Ray mode were
on the order of a whopping 8MB. Drive space was maybe a 2 Gig drive.
Of course, if you really need it, I can track down a copy of edlin for you
to use under dosemu.
--
Wind the Frog!
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