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Rune S. Johansen <run### [at] get2net dk> wrote:
> Now, I don't know any programming languages or what is required to make
> programs, so what I would like to know is which programming language I
> should choose to start with.
Python, and if that's too slow, straight C. then you can write the
speed-hungry parts in C, and wire them up with Python.
http://www.python.org/
> A description of which languages have which advantages and disadvantages
> would be appreciated.
C is nice, simple and portable, but you'll get bitten a lot by pointer errors
while learning. make sure you're on a solid OS.
C++ is complicated, after reading some Guru of the Week questions in
comp.lang.c++ I just quit C++ altogether. way too many obscure pitfalls for
me.
Java is a quite nice language, but current environments are way too slow. if
I have to take a speed hit, I'll take all the niceties Python offers rather
than all the baggage a "real" programming language like Java has. OTOH, Java
compilers are now becoming available, although I haven't tried any yet.
Pascal and Delphi are weak in the OO department. and before anyone starts
jumping up and down: Delphi's notion of interfaces is unusable. something
like Java's Collections is, AFAICS, impossible. those are already a
compromise, Collections not being type-safe, but Delphi doesn't even have
that. eww. maybe in the next lets-steal-a-feature-from-Objective-C round.
this besides the obvious vendor-lock issue with Delphi.
> There's one more thing, I can't spend any money on this programming hobby,
> I guess that limits my number of choices?
Python is free, as are a few C and C++ compilers. http://www.gnu.org/
the Sun JDK is also free.
it is beneficial to learn a "real" language anyway, even if you do go
with Python. knowing a real language is about the only thing that can really
shed some light into the magic black box that is your computer.
Lodewijk
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Thank you all for your support!
I think I choose to start with c.
So which free PC windows 9x c compiler is the best?
Of course that's a matter of opinion but opinions is exactly what I would
like to hear.
portelli wrote:
>I mention c and not c++ because some of those nice features of c++ have
>gotten me into trouble. It was easier to them do it in plain old c. I
>think with c you get a better grasp on what is actually happening. But
>that is just me.
>
>Johannes Hubert wrote:
>>
>> portelli wrote in message <37224A1B.9E54CA8A@pilot.msu.edu>...
>> >Start with c. There are several free compilers out there. For the PC
>> >there is djgpp, cygwin, and several others.
>>
>> I wouldn't recommend that actually. C is a difficult language to learn as
a
>> first language.
Do you mean C or C++ is a difficult first language? I'm a little confused.
>> If you really don't want to do anything object-oriented,
>> then I would recommend Pascal instead.
>>
>> But then again, why *not* an object-oriented langauge?
>>
>> It is only a myth that object-oriented languages are more difficult to
learn
>> than procedural ones (like C or Pascal). This mostly stems from the fact,
>> that most programmers began with BASIC, C or Pascal but very few with an
>> object-oriented language, and that for those oldtimers
"object-orientation"
>> still is some strange "newfangled" concept because it goes partly
contrary
>> to what they have learned before. For a newbie who never had contact with
>> programming before, the whole object-orientation can be very intuitive
and
>> easy to grasp, because there are no preconceptions about "how something
>> should be done" (in terms of programming) that are to be overcome.
<snip>
>> So long,
>> Johannes.
Thanks,
Rune S. Johansen
http://hjem.get2net.dk/rsj
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Rune S. Johansen skrev i meddelelsen <3724cc63.0@news.povray.org>...
>Thank you all for your support!
>
>I think I choose to start with c.
>So which free PC windows 9x c compiler is the best?
>Of course that's a matter of opinion but opinions is exactly what I would
>like to hear.
>
<snip>
>
>Thanks,
>
>Rune S. Johansen
>http://hjem.get2net.dk/rsj
I may not know exactly what I am talking about.
I just meant:
I use windows 95.
Which free compiler do you think I should use?
Thanks,
Rune S. Johansen
http://hjem.get2net.dk/rsj
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Rune S. Johansen wrote:
> I would like to come into programming.
There are essentially three mutually exclusive [ :-( ]
kinds of programming languages:
1. Those which everybody uses to write useful stuff in (C, Java,
Perl, C++)
2. Those which are relatively easy to learn (scheme, python, subsets of
perl)
3. Those which are constructed in order to be pure, safe, exact
or something like that (Haskell, Ada, ...)
> I would like to learn a real programming language so I will be less limited
> and can work with things such as interactivity.
If you want to do interactive stuff, you might look at perl or python
(perl is messier, but is considered more intuitive by many people).
Both come with Tk bindings, which allow doing GUIs on both Unixen
(trivially) and Win (after having installed some additional libraries,
which are documented at the place where the language itself is
available).
Languages of the third group are interesting, but probably overkill
unless you need to prove that your programs won't crash even after
an interstellar flight. :-)
Ralf
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#declare FLAME = true;
Come come...
Pascal can be OOP . I know, I do.
Compilers that handle pascal OOP:
Borland Pascal 7.0
Borland Turbo Pascal 7.0
(Both of theese are now more or less difficult to find. they have long been
outside Borlands sortiment, and Borland is now known as Inprise)
Borland(Inprise) Delphi
TMT pascal (http://www.tmt.com)
As a language, Pascal is rather easy, yet far more powerful than most tend to
say.
Main reasons for beeing "easy" as a programming language is it's development.
It was ment to be "readable" and to read pascal code is rather like reading
english
(ex.)
Var I : integer; {I is the variable name (#declare I...)}
for I:= 1 to 15 do
begin
....
end;
This makes it easier to read, although somewhat slower to type than other
languages. (Sorry, I won't call BASIC a language ;-)
as a beginners place for Pascal, I'd recommend Khaan's place (
http://www.algonet.se/~khaan/ ) as it has pretty good beginners guides and
lessons to learn pascal.
I'll also have to add that there are some freeware compilers for pascal(YEY).
Khaan covers this area as well :-)
#undef(FLAME)
--
//Spider
[ spi### [at] bahnhofse ]-[ http://www.bahnhof.se/~spider/ ]
What I can do and what I could do, I just don't know anymore
"Marian"
By: "Sisters Of Mercy"
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Rune S. Johansen wrote:
>I would like to come into programming.
<snip>
>A description of which languages have which advantages and disadvantages
>would be appreciated.
>There's one more thing, I can't spend any money on this programming hobby,
I
>guess that limits my number of choices?
<snip>
Well, I haven't decided yet after all.
A little more details of what I would like to be able to do:
- Create graphic related programs. That could be anything from
post processing tools to programs that generates stereograms
to simple games.
- Create interactive programs, i.e. simple games, multimedia
things and so on.
- Create programs with windows interface.
Of course I mean I would like to learn this with time,
over many years.
Thanks for any opinions.
Rune S. Johansen
http://hjem.get2net.dk/rsj
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"Rune S. Johansen" wrote:
> Rune S. Johansen wrote:
> >I would like to come into programming.
> <snip>
> >A description of which languages have which advantages and disadvantages
> >would be appreciated.
> >There's one more thing, I can't spend any money on this programming hobby,
> I
> >guess that limits my number of choices?
> <snip>
>
> Well, I haven't decided yet after all.
>
> A little more details of what I would like to be able to do:
> - Create graphic related programs. That could be anything from
> post processing tools to programs that generates stereograms
> to simple games.
> - Create interactive programs, i.e. simple games, multimedia
> things and so on.
> - Create programs with windows interface.
>
> Of course I mean I would like to learn this with time,
> over many years.
OK. here are my opinions:
With the goals you mentioned, I'd suggest starting on Java and going to C,
with some flip-flop between then (i.e. get the Java basics down, do some nice
little thingies, then get the C basics down, then move back to Java a learn a
little more...). Start with the Java Tutorial from Sun.
Java applets are simple, but get limited soon. Java applications are nice.
For Java I'd suggest getting into Swing/JFC instead of learning AWT stuff.
Also, start with JDK 1.1.7/1.1.8. That's all free! Download the JDK, then also
get the Jikes java compiler from IBM (also free)
Once you get into C and 'windows interface', I'd suggest looking into GTK
(unless your heart is really set on MS Windows development). Probably the best
thing to start with is the Gimp. Besides being Linux, there is now a Win32
port that is pretty far along (it is currently on MSVC 5, but getting the free
cygnus stuff supported as we speak). GTK came from the Gimp to begin with. You
might want to start by looking into the different Gimp plugins (sounds like
the stuff you're interested in).
Also, keep up with Freshmeat and get and read the source of any interesting
programs mentioned there.
Java http://java.sun.com/
Jikes http://www.alphaWorks.ibm.com/
The Java Tutorial http://java.sun.com/docs/books/tutorial/index.html
JDC http://developer.java.sun.com/
Gimp http://www.gimp.org/
GTK http://www.gtk.org/
Freshmeat http://freshmeat.net/
Better yet, just get Linux and use gcc for c, and JDK from
http://www.blackdown.org/ for Java.
Also, there are some interesting Java API's out there.
Java2D (in Java2/JDK1.2)
http://java.sun.com/products/java-media/2D/index.html
Java Media Framework http://java.sun.com/products/java-media/jmf/index.html
Java Advanced Imaging
http://java.sun.com/products/java-media/jai/index.html
Java 3D http://java.sun.com/products/java-media/3D/index.html
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"Rune S. Johansen" wrote:
> I would like to come into programming.
<snip>
> A description of which languages have which advantages and disadvantages
> would be appreciated.
<snip>
What platform do you use ?
That is always relevant because some platforms have softwares others don't.
Talking broadly :
What use do you want to make out of programming ?
Is it just for fun ?
Do you want to be able to write software quickly ?
Or do you have time on your hands.
What is your budget ?
The best way in my opinion is to take the fun approach and to make time if you
don't already have it, so you take it leisurely enough.
I started a long time ago with Basic and the like, they do not help much for
programming. A few days with them is more than enough. The basic style languages
only bring bad habits, so is best avoided. The only thing basic can do for you
any other language can do it as well and this is to start grasp what a program
is and what sort of simple actions you can do with a program.
One choice is important though.
When you start programming you want to see the result straight away. So it is
usually easier to start with an interpreted language.
Once you are confident enough, then add another layer of knowledge and put in
the compilation & link stages.
My second step was Logo, there is a Logo interpreter available for Windows
somewhere on the net, I don't remember the URL. Maybe more than just Windows.
You may try to locate it at
http://union.ncsa.uiuc.edu/HyperNews/get/computing/lang-list.html as this lists
many (most ? all ? not all, no) languages available in the computing world.
This is really great for toying and getting you into very good programming
thinking although pretty simple to use.
Then there is two broad routes :
1-fun/toying
2-work/net/useable fun/games
Route 1 :
I would strongly recommend looking into Prolog and Le Lisp. Two great sets of
concepts. It is actually nice to follow this Route first, then go on to Route 2.
Or maybe just stay on Route 1 if you can afford it (timewise, if computers don't
feed you for instance).
Route 2 :
Next step I would strongly advise Pascal as it is a pretty simple conventional
programming language. If you look closely at the way it enforces you to define
your programs you will understand pretty clearly and pretty quickly what is
happening in the machine and in the compiler. Pascal is one of the best
(self)teaching languages.
Borland (not free) has developped turbo pascal with object oriented features and
that is much easier to use than C++. Again very good for teaching purposes not
always as powerful as C/C++, always cleaner than C/C++.
C is a disgrace to methodical, pretty, safe, reliable computing but it has grown
so big that you just can't avoid it. So whenever you want to seriously take up
programming and merge your efforts with stuff that floats on the net, then C/C++
are unavoidable. They are powerful languages but they can be pretty messy and
you need a lot of experience to cope with sizable applications.
I would like to advise ADA but unfortunately too few companies/programmers use
it or know how to use it. ADA is pretty complex but allows to write nicer,
safer, more reliable apps than C. There is one big bad point with ADA though :
string manipulation is poor in the standard package - and string manipulation is
a very strong point of C.
A lot of very powerful tools like awk/sed/lex/yacc/bison/python/java borrow from
the C/C++ spirit and/or interface easily with C/C++.
If you are into maths to a high degree then you will not be able to avoid
Fortran (f77 mostly). It is pretty bnackwards but so many maths libraries have
been coded in fortran that many people just gave up trying to port it all to
another language.
I'm sure there must be free versions of all languages I quoted. Sometimes free
versions can be a headache as you have no one to blame for doing things wrong
and not being helpful. But in the long run you find out that these are the best
for finding helpful people - big companies do not help much.
Starting off with a free tool can be hard in the beginning, but if you hold on
and get over it, they really reward you with satisfaction.
Best of luck in your quest,
Alain.
--
ANTI SPAM / ANTI ARROSAGE COMMERCIAL :
To answer me, please take out the Z from my address.
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Being the lone FORTRAN programmer in the known POV universe I must take
exception to your comments about the language :b) . Fortran 95 (yes, an
actual, current ANSI standard) has been thoroughly polluted with all the
structured, object oriented "improvements" that clutter C++ and associated
languages. The Fortran 2000 ANSI standard promises to continue this
deconstruction of a once fine language ...
Also, Lahey (www.lahey.com) offers a free Fortran compiler.
So there! :)D
--
Jim
Check out my web site http://www.kressworks.com/
It'll blow your mind (politically), stimulate your senses (artistically)
and provide scientific insights that boggle the mind!!
Alain CULOS wrote in message <37278CAC.283BCE5C@bigfoot.com>...
>"Rune S. Johansen" wrote:
>
>> I would like to come into programming.
>
<LARGE SNIP>
>
>If you are into maths to a high degree then you will not be able to avoid
>Fortran (f77 mostly). It is pretty bnackwards but so many maths libraries
have
>been coded in fortran that many people just gave up trying to port it all
to
>another language.
>
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Jim Kress wrote:
>
> Being the lone FORTRAN programmer in the known POV universe I must take
> exception to your comments about the language :b) . Fortran 95 (yes, an
> actual, current ANSI standard) has been thoroughly polluted with all the
> structured, object oriented "improvements" that clutter C++ and associated
> languages. The Fortran 2000 ANSI standard promises to continue this
> deconstruction of a once fine language ...
>
> Also, Lahey (www.lahey.com) offers a free Fortran compiler.
>
> So there! :)D
>
> --
> Jim
>
Hey!
I'm not alone with this dinosaur! :-)
Well your're not alone. And I use still the good ole' FORTRAN 77.
Marc
--
Marc Schimmler
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