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From: Bald Eagle
Subject: Livelihoods
Date: 23 Apr 2020 07:25:00
Message: <web.5ea17a38a369a01cfb0b41570@news.povray.org>
As TdG recently commented, millions of people's livelihoods are at stake.

But it's _not_ "because of COVID-19" - but because of people's _response_ to it.
Fear
Panic
Learned helplessness
Lack of knowledge, skill, preparation, and ---
Independence and self-sufficiency

And I get that really uncomfortable feeling when I watch what is going on, given
the real medical statistics, who the players are, the level of hype, the broad
sweeping global participation, the origins of the virus, the slimy celebrities
and massive international bill-to-trillion dollar corporations jumping on the
bandwagon, the speed at which everything is being ramped up and _changed_, and
the suggestions for what the "solutions" are, and WE "need" to do to "go back to
normal".  It's all pretty Hegelian.

http://www.nommeraadio.ee/meedia/pdf/RRS/Rockefeller%20Foundation.pdf
see page 18


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From: Bald Eagle
Subject: Re: Livelihoods
Date: 23 Apr 2020 07:30:00
Message: <web.5ea17bbb144bf601fb0b41570@news.povray.org>
Oh, and a very notable point is on page 2 - because this was formulated and
published in

2010


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From: Thomas de Groot
Subject: Re: Livelihoods
Date: 24 Apr 2020 02:49:26
Message: <5ea28bf6$1@news.povray.org>
Op 23/04/2020 om 13:21 schreef Bald Eagle:
> 
> As TdG recently commented, millions of people's livelihoods are at stake.
> 
> But it's _not_ "because of COVID-19" - but because of people's _response_ to it.
> Fear
> Panic
> Learned helplessness
> Lack of knowledge, skill, preparation, and ---
> Independence and self-sufficiency
> 
The response is not really different from all the pandemic responses in 
the past of the human species. We have however become more numerous and 
more mobile on this planet, and any virus mindlessly responds greedily 
to such favourable conditions.

> And I get that really uncomfortable feeling when I watch what is going on, given
> the real medical statistics, who the players are, the level of hype, the broad
> sweeping global participation, the origins of the virus, the slimy celebrities
> and massive international bill-to-trillion dollar corporations jumping on the
> bandwagon, the speed at which everything is being ramped up and _changed_, and
> the suggestions for what the "solutions" are, and WE "need" to do to "go back to
> normal".  It's all pretty Hegelian.

I think it is too early to get meaningful answers at this stage. A 
serious analysis later on may give some. However, I am afraid little 
will be changed as a result. I would hope personally that global 
neo-liberal policies and economic responses were put under serious scrutiny.

> 
> http://www.nommeraadio.ee/meedia/pdf/RRS/Rockefeller%20Foundation.pdf
> see page 18
> 

Thanks for this. Interesting document. Am going to read it.

-- 
Thomas


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From: Norbert Kern
Subject: Re: Livelihoods
Date: 25 Apr 2020 13:05:00
Message: <web.5ea46c74144bf601afdd13e10@news.povray.org>
"Bald Eagle" <cre### [at] netscapenet> wrote:
> As TdG recently commented, millions of people's livelihoods are at stake.
>
> But it's _not_ "because of COVID-19" - but because of people's _response_ to it.
> Fear
> Panic
> Learned helplessness
> Lack of knowledge, skill, preparation, and ---
> Independence and self-sufficiency
>
> And I get that really uncomfortable feeling when I watch what is going on, given
> the real medical statistics, who the players are, the level of hype, the broad
> sweeping global participation, the origins of the virus, the slimy celebrities
> and massive international bill-to-trillion dollar corporations jumping on the
> bandwagon, the speed at which everything is being ramped up and _changed_, and
> the suggestions for what the "solutions" are, and WE "need" to do to "go back to
> normal".  It's all pretty Hegelian.
>
> http://www.nommeraadio.ee/meedia/pdf/RRS/Rockefeller%20Foundation.pdf
> see page 18




I've founded Corporate Foresight in my company in 2009.
Scenarios are one of the more useful instruments. Of course they are limited by
the experience and background of the participants - but they can give quick and
organized input for a strategic response as long as decision makers use them.

Since most governments use such (and most are very similar) sets of scenarios
because of lacking personal experience they all tend to react in a more or less
common manner (no polititian wants to make own mistakes in new situations - so
do what others do).

But we will see different reaction schemes very soon...
Up to now I cannot detect a force directing from the background - it's more like
a roused hen house as we say in germany.


Norbert


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From: Thomas de Groot
Subject: Re: Livelihoods
Date: 26 Apr 2020 02:28:20
Message: <5ea52a04$1@news.povray.org>
Op 25/04/2020 om 18:59 schreef Norbert Kern:
> "Bald Eagle" <cre### [at] netscapenet> wrote:
>> As TdG recently commented, millions of people's livelihoods are at stake.
>>
>> But it's _not_ "because of COVID-19" - but because of people's _response_ to it.
>> Fear
>> Panic
>> Learned helplessness
>> Lack of knowledge, skill, preparation, and ---
>> Independence and self-sufficiency
>>
>> And I get that really uncomfortable feeling when I watch what is going on, given
>> the real medical statistics, who the players are, the level of hype, the broad
>> sweeping global participation, the origins of the virus, the slimy celebrities
>> and massive international bill-to-trillion dollar corporations jumping on the
>> bandwagon, the speed at which everything is being ramped up and _changed_, and
>> the suggestions for what the "solutions" are, and WE "need" to do to "go back to
>> normal".  It's all pretty Hegelian.
>>
>> http://www.nommeraadio.ee/meedia/pdf/RRS/Rockefeller%20Foundation.pdf
>> see page 18
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I've founded Corporate Foresight in my company in 2009.
> Scenarios are one of the more useful instruments. Of course they are limited by
> the experience and background of the participants - but they can give quick and
> organized input for a strategic response as long as decision makers use them.
> 
> Since most governments use such (and most are very similar) sets of scenarios
> because of lacking personal experience they all tend to react in a more or less
> common manner (no polititian wants to make own mistakes in new situations - so
> do what others do).
> 
> But we will see different reaction schemes very soon...
> Up to now I cannot detect a force directing from the background - it's more like
> a roused hen house as we say in germany.
> 
> 
> Norbert
> 

Yes indeed. I agree with that.

One of the things emerging - and it is not the first time - is this: 
https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-52401763. This kind of "philosophy" 
has me badly worried. Democracy is not something to be played down as "a 
price worth paying", imho.

-- 
Thomas


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From: Norbert Kern
Subject: Re: Livelihoods
Date: 27 Apr 2020 13:55:01
Message: <web.5ea71b1e144bf601afdd13e10@news.povray.org>
Thomas de Groot <tho### [at] degrootorg> wrote:

>
> One of the things emerging - and it is not the first time - is this:
> https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-52401763. This kind of "philosophy"
> has me badly worried. Democracy is not something to be played down as "a
> price worth paying", imho.
>
> --
> Thomas


Our occidental culture developed ideologies like communism and fascism.
Perhaps it belongs to a dichotomy, that western world also installed democracies
beginning with switzerland, netherlands, england, USA and so on.

Other regions don't have such a history and they don't see democracy as a
fundamental value as we do.

As western world superiority is fading, other countries and regions step in.
Some of them want to destabilize the western world by money and slowly growing
influence, others by exporting terrorism...

Anyway, I don't believe in think tanks as long as they are easy to manipulate by
a mixture of ideology and money.
And I've a bad feeling about modern left-wing organizations. They have changed
fundamentally from where I knew them in the seventies and eighties.
But here my own conspiracy theories are rising - and I'm very sceptical about my
own thoughts.

Last thought - Our western culture is the one which emphasizes ratio most with
all its good and bad consequences - I hope this fundamental value will guide us
through the hard times to come...


Norbert


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From: Bald Eagle
Subject: Re: Livelihoods
Date: 27 Apr 2020 15:35:01
Message: <web.5ea73391144bf601fb0b41570@news.povray.org>
"Norbert Kern" <nor### [at] t-onlinede> wrote:
> Thomas de Groot <tho### [at] degrootorg> wrote:
Democracy is not something to be played down as "a
> > price worth paying", imho.

> ...that western world also installed democracies
> beginning with ... USA and so on.

The united States of America was designed to be a Constitutional Republic.  The
Founders recognized the dangers of a pure democracy, and did their best to
protect against it.   That's one of the reasons the politicians and media harp
on "democracy" so much - because it's the very antithesis of what the Founders
envisioned as an enduring nation of Liberty and prosperity.

Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on what to have for dinner.

Alas, much has gone badly awry in the last 200 years, though I have seen some
claim that it was planned that way from the very beginning.

I think the important thing is not that we make [honest] mistakes, or fall, but
that we get up, and we learn the important lessons from the errors committed.


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From: Norbert Kern
Subject: Re: Livelihoods
Date: 27 Apr 2020 17:40:07
Message: <web.5ea7501b144bf601afdd13e10@news.povray.org>
"Bald Eagle" <cre### [at] netscapenet> wrote:

> The united States of America was designed to be a Constitutional Republic.  The
> Founders recognized the dangers of a pure democracy, and did their best to
> protect against it.   That's one of the reasons the politicians and media harp
> on "democracy" so much - because it's the very antithesis of what the Founders
> envisioned as an enduring nation of Liberty and prosperity.
>
> Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on what to have for dinner.
>
> Alas, much has gone badly awry in the last 200 years, though I have seen some
> claim that it was planned that way from the very beginning.
>
> I think the important thing is not that we make [honest] mistakes, or fall, but
> that we get up, and we learn the important lessons from the errors committed.


I don't know, what kind of pure democracy USA wanted to avoid - is it anarchy or
a democracy like in antic athen, where Socrates was sentenced to death? I
wouldn't like either...
Nothing should be taken to its extremes! Here I "totally" agree with the
founding fathers, if I got them correct ;-)

But what we have to learn now beside all of the economic stuff?
Personally I don't see a clear winning system and I don't have the eastern
mentality to give my data away like in Taiwan or South Corea.

Nobody will get my moving data, that's for sure!


Norbert


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From: jr
Subject: Re: Livelihoods
Date: 27 Apr 2020 20:10:01
Message: <web.5ea773df144bf601898043f30@news.povray.org>
hi,

"Norbert Kern" <nor### [at] t-onlinede> wrote:
> ...
> Personally I don't see a clear winning system and I don't have the eastern
> mentality to give my data away like in Taiwan or South Corea.
>
> Nobody will get my moving data, that's for sure!

sure?  ;-)  a couple of years ago or so the BBC had an article on their website
(technology section, I think.  cannot -- of course -- find the bookmark now)
which stated that the state security services here (UK) can predict a person's
physical movement/location for 24 hours in advance, with a better than 90%
accuracy; based on all those .. habitual actions.  and the BND won't be
different.  I guess that we all "leak" sufficient data for those who have the
ability to collate it.

(and thanks for the light&shadows, new laptop wallpaper :-))


regards, jr.


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From: Thomas de Groot
Subject: Re: Livelihoods
Date: 28 Apr 2020 02:51:40
Message: <5ea7d27c@news.povray.org>
Op 27/04/2020 om 21:33 schreef Bald Eagle:
> "Norbert Kern" <nor### [at] t-onlinede> wrote:
>> Thomas de Groot <tho### [at] degrootorg> wrote:
> Democracy is not something to be played down as "a
>>> price worth paying", imho.
> 
>> ...that western world also installed democracies
>> beginning with ... USA and so on.
> 
> The united States of America was designed to be a Constitutional Republic.  The
> Founders recognized the dangers of a pure democracy, and did their best to
> protect against it.   That's one of the reasons the politicians and media harp
> on "democracy" so much - because it's the very antithesis of what the Founders
> envisioned as an enduring nation of Liberty and prosperity.
> 
> Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on what to have for dinner.
> 
> Alas, much has gone badly awry in the last 200 years, though I have seen some
> claim that it was planned that way from the very beginning.
> 
> I think the important thing is not that we make [honest] mistakes, or fall, but
> that we get up, and we learn the important lessons from the errors committed.
> 

Interesting! I wonder what the term 'democracy' meant to the Founding 
Fathers... I suppose something godless, inimical to their own faith; 
after all, they were refugees. I don't think that the modern 
understanding of 'democracy' remotely corresponds to theirs, except, 
maybe, in the US? ;-) Certainly, the term 'liberty' means something very 
different from my own definition when I read about fringe groups like 
'preppers'. But then the same can be said about far-right political 
parties in EU which use the term 'liberty' for their own intentions.

-- 
Thomas


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