On Sun, 19 Mar 2017 12:58:06 -0400, Mike Horvath wrote:

> On 3/19/2017 1:55 AM, Jim Henderson wrote:
>> I kinda agree.  Cultural appropriation is something to be aware of, but
>> the 'melting pot' that is the US means that we blend stuff together -
>> and as Bill Maher pointed out a few weeks ago, we need to stop
>> apologizing on the left for 'stupid shit'.  I don't always agree with
>> Maher, and he gets a lot of things wrong (such as his stance on the
>> first amendment - it's colored by being pushed off the air with
>> "Politically Incorrect" after people boycotted advertisers - he doesn't
>> understand that the boycott *was* a first amendment expression relating
>> to freedom of association. The first amendment doesn't give him the
>> right to an audience or the right to a TV show - or the right to social
>> consequences for saying things people don't like), but I do like that
>> he says what he wants to say, and doesn't care what people think. 
>> Sometimes he's a schmuck when he does that.  A lot of times he's not.
>>
>>
> I think you're confusing "right" with "entitlement". He certainly has a
> _right_ to an audience, TV show, etc. etc. But he's not _entitled_ to
> have one.

I don't think I am confusing those two things, but I do see the 
distinction you're making.  I might have to give that more thought.

The reason I'm not sure is because the first amendment doesn't take away 
people's right to decide if they want to listen to someone.  In fact, 
quite the opposite, it gives the prospective audience the right to decide 
"I don't want to be associated with that speech or that group of people".

-- 
"I learned long ago, never to wrestle with a pig. You get dirty, and 
besides, the pig likes it." - George Bernard Shaw

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On 3/19/2017 10:07 PM, Jim Henderson wrote:
>>> Some will go out, get a gun, return to the workplace, and shoot a bunch
>>> >>of people - probably before shooting themselves.
>>> >>
>>> >>
>> >If only they would do the latter first. O lot of problems would be non
>> >events. It is the same with some fathers who kill their own family
>> >before killing themselves.
> Part of me agrees, but part of me thinks that it's not their fault they
> were never taught how to cope with life.

I don't know about teaching. Helping people to cope with life, yes.



I don't see it as a "one size fits all". Everyone is different and react 
to different situations, differently.


> At the same time, I know people
> who are the product of that kind of upbringing who recognize how screwed
> up it was and have worked hard to overcome it.  Everyone copes
> differently - it's when harming others comes into it that things get ugly
> and messy.
>

Yes, it is the harming others that is the problem. IMO.


>>> >>It's pretty obviously not a good thing for mental health.  Everyone
>>> >>needs to learn how to fail with grace - and that failure is often a
>>> >>great teacher.
>>> >>
>> >Can you imagine the hoo ha if that were to be introduced into school
>> >syllabuses?
> I can.  When I interview people, I ask questions I know they can't answer
> (I'll withhold key information, typically) because how you respond to
> that kind of situation is really important to being successful.

I'm sure you do it sympathetically. Sometimes the best answer is "I 
don't know. I would have to research it and get back to you.
I remember one interview I had where the technical guy asked me where in 
the db to put the customer's name and address. I gave him three obvious 
and best working practice answers. Each time he said that's not how they 
did it. So I mentioned a couple of bespoke solutions then finally 
thanked them for their time and said that I had enough information to 
decide that I no longer wished to continue the interview.
Sometimes it is not a good idea to take every job that is offered.



-- 

Regards
     Stephen

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On Mon, 20 Mar 2017 09:03:34 +0000, Stephen wrote:

> On 3/19/2017 10:07 PM, Jim Henderson wrote:
>>>> Some will go out, get a gun, return to the workplace, and shoot a
>>>> bunch
>>>> >>of people - probably before shooting themselves.
>>>> >>
>>>> >>
>>> >If only they would do the latter first. O lot of problems would be
>>> >non events. It is the same with some fathers who kill their own
>>> >family before killing themselves.
>> Part of me agrees, but part of me thinks that it's not their fault they
>> were never taught how to cope with life.
> 
> I don't know about teaching. Helping people to cope with life, yes.

Well, maybe not so much about teaching, but about learning - and everyone 
learns in different ways.  Sign of a good teacher is one who understands 
that and can adapt.

> I don't see it as a "one size fits all". Everyone is different and react
> to different situations, differently.

True.  I don't mean to suggest anything differently than that - but 
everyone should learn some baseline coping skills for what to do when you 
fail, because failure is a big part of life.

>> At the same time, I know people who are the product of that kind of
>> upbringing who recognize how screwed up it was and have worked hard to
>> overcome it.  Everyone copes differently - it's when harming others
>> comes into it that things get ugly and messy.
>>
>>
> Yes, it is the harming others that is the problem. IMO.

Indeed.

>>>> >>It's pretty obviously not a good thing for mental health.  Everyone
>>>> >>needs to learn how to fail with grace - and that failure is often a
>>>> >>great teacher.
>>>> >>
>>> >Can you imagine the hoo ha if that were to be introduced into school
>>> >syllabuses?
>> I can.  When I interview people, I ask questions I know they can't
>> answer (I'll withhold key information, typically) because how you
>> respond to that kind of situation is really important to being
>> successful.
> 
> I'm sure you do it sympathetically. Sometimes the best answer is "I
> don't know. I would have to research it and get back to you.

That's exactly the type of answer I'm looking for - or for the scenario 
to lead to a discussion about the types of information they're looking 
for (since it's my scenario, I can answer those questions - so it can 
become a bit of role-play).

> I remember one interview I had where the technical guy asked me where in
> the db to put the customer's name and address. I gave him three obvious
> and best working practice answers. Each time he said that's not how they
> did it. So I mentioned a couple of bespoke solutions then finally
> thanked them for their time and said that I had enough information to
> decide that I no longer wished to continue the interview.
> Sometimes it is not a good idea to take every job that is offered.

That's certainly true.  Over the past couple of months, I've actually had 
a few interviews (one was pretty promising, actually - but I withdrew 
because of a change at work; I didn't feel it was right to continue to 
interview when I took a new position where I currently am - not fair to 
anyone for me to leave a few weeks after taking on new responsibilities - 
and stuff I'm excited to be doing).

Job interviews are very much a two-way street.

-- 
"I learned long ago, never to wrestle with a pig. You get dirty, and 
besides, the pig likes it." - George Bernard Shaw

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On 3/20/2017 3:58 PM, Jim Henderson wrote:
> On Mon, 20 Mar 2017 09:03:34 +0000, Stephen wrote:
>

>>
>> I don't know about teaching. Helping people to cope with life, yes.
>
> Well, maybe not so much about teaching, but about learning - and everyone
> learns in different ways.  Sign of a good teacher is one who understands
> that and can adapt.
>

There is such a thing as a good teacher?
Well maybe I did not go to the best sort of school. So have no experience.


>> I don't see it as a "one size fits all". Everyone is different and react
>> to different situations, differently.
>
> True.  I don't mean to suggest anything differently than that - but
> everyone should learn some baseline coping skills for what to do when you
> fail, because failure is a big part of life.
>

Failing in a safe environment is a good way to learn. At least for me.



>>
>> I'm sure you do it sympathetically. Sometimes the best answer is "I
>> don't know. I would have to research it and get back to you.
>
> That's exactly the type of answer I'm looking for - or for the scenario
> to lead to a discussion about the types of information they're looking
> for (since it's my scenario, I can answer those questions - so it can
> become a bit of role-play).
>

Honesty is really the best policy.

>> I remember one interview I had where the technical guy asked me where in
>> the db to put the customer's name and address. I gave him three obvious
>> and best working practice answers. Each time he said that's not how they
>> did it. So I mentioned a couple of bespoke solutions then finally
>> thanked them for their time and said that I had enough information to
>> decide that I no longer wished to continue the interview.
>> Sometimes it is not a good idea to take every job that is offered.
>
> That's certainly true.  Over the past couple of months, I've actually had
> a few interviews (one was pretty promising, actually - but I withdrew
> because of a change at work; I didn't feel it was right to continue to
> interview when I took a new position where I currently am - not fair to
> anyone for me to leave a few weeks after taking on new responsibilities -
> and stuff I'm excited to be doing).
>
> Job interviews are very much a two-way street.
>

Indeed they should be. But sometimes the pressure makes people waffle.

-- 

Regards
     Stephen

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On Mon, 20 Mar 2017 16:29:54 +0000, Stephen wrote:

> On 3/20/2017 3:58 PM, Jim Henderson wrote:
>> On Mon, 20 Mar 2017 09:03:34 +0000, Stephen wrote:
> 
>>> I don't know about teaching. Helping people to cope with life, yes.
>>
>> Well, maybe not so much about teaching, but about learning - and
>> everyone learns in different ways.  Sign of a good teacher is one who
>> understands that and can adapt.
>>
> There is such a thing as a good teacher?

Oh, yes, I had some great teachers - not just on subjects, but in life.  
Two of the best about life, actually, were violin teachers I had.

One of them taught me the importance of seeing things from other peoples' 
point of view, and how to do that especially when their POV was different 
than yours.

> Well maybe I did not go to the best sort of school. So have no
> experience.

Sadly, that happens - but teachers aren't just the people who stand in 
front of a class, either.  Good role models also teach by modeling good 
behaviour.

>>> I don't see it as a "one size fits all". Everyone is different and
>>> react to different situations, differently.
>>
>> True.  I don't mean to suggest anything differently than that - but
>> everyone should learn some baseline coping skills for what to do when
>> you fail, because failure is a big part of life.
>>
>>
> Failing in a safe environment is a good way to learn. At least for me.

Yep, absolutely.  Experience being what you got when you didn't get what 
you wanted - that sort of thing.

>>> I'm sure you do it sympathetically. Sometimes the best answer is "I
>>> don't know. I would have to research it and get back to you.
>>
>> That's exactly the type of answer I'm looking for - or for the scenario
>> to lead to a discussion about the types of information they're looking
>> for (since it's my scenario, I can answer those questions - so it can
>> become a bit of role-play).
>>
>>
> Honesty is really the best policy.

Indeed it is - and that's what I want.  It's easy to do interviews like 
that when you are the SME - because being a SME makes it much easier to 
smell out the bullshit.

> Indeed they should be. But sometimes the pressure makes people waffle.

Yeah.  Especially if they think about what's on the line.  After I got 
laid off, interviewing was much harder because it was about paying the 
bills - and I'm picky about who I'll interview with, too.  Always have 
been.

So when the outplacement service said I should be sending out something 
like 50 CVs a week and scheduling 10 interviews a week - that's not 
something that I see as sustainable, because you can't fake excitement 
about a prospective job.  When they ask you "why Microsoft" or "why 
Amazon" or "why McDonald's" - the honest answer at that point is "why 
not?  You're one of 50 people I sent CVs to last week."

But when it's just two companies who are interested (as was the case for 
me recently), I could honestly answer "I'm not actually looking - you 
guys came to me, but the technology you work on interests me, so I 
thought I'd see what you had to offer" - that's a much easier kind of 
interview to have.  I actually felt bad about withdrawing from one of the 
two I recently was talking to - but new responsibilities with a broader 
scope than what they offered, and without moving companies (meaning I 
still work from home instead of having a 90-minute commute each way at 
least 3 days a week) - staying where I am makes sense, even if they 
offered more money.  At some point, it isn't about the money - and it's 
nice to be able to say that.

Jim
-- 
"I learned long ago, never to wrestle with a pig. You get dirty, and 
besides, the pig likes it." - George Bernard Shaw

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