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On Sun, 27 Jul 2014 16:34:10 -0700, Patrick Elliott wrote:
> But, you nailed the real issue straight on. The only time
> they change their opinions, only, not really, is if they think it might
> somehow damage their chances of being reelected.
Yep.
It's like the phrase "representative democracy" means "our constituents
represent our views" (hence gerrymandering) rather than the other way
around.
Jim
--
"I learned long ago, never to wrestle with a pig. You get dirty, and
besides, the pig likes it." - George Bernard Shaw
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On 7/26/2014 11:30 PM, Jim Henderson wrote:
> On Sat, 26 Jul 2014 21:48:04 -0700, Patrick Elliott wrote:
>
>> On 7/26/2014 3:34 PM, Jim Henderson wrote:
>>>> That would probably be the best, but then, perhaps people would vote
>>>> for the one candidate who praises God all the time?
>>>
>>> It's a question of making beliefs be private or "none" becoming the
>>> norm. That's something that's going to take some time over here.
>>>
>>> Jim
>>
>> Yeah. Mostly its one side trying real hard to not offend anyone, while
>> babbling about god and refusing to stop patently insulting crap like the
>> national day of wishful thinking, while the other side spends almost as
>> much time claiming that everyone else isn't going to hell, while trying
>> to claim that, no, in fact **they** pray more, or are more godly, etc.,
>> than the other guy running, including their own party members, when
>> running against them.
>
> What we need to do, I think, is instill the idea that actions speak
> louder than words in the youth.
>
That is what lawyers, smear campaigns, public image consultants and
keeping your own life as private as possible, while digging up someone
else's as much as possible, are for, right?
> Someone who's all in favor of "family values" but is actually a serial
> cheating scumbag can be judged based on what they do, not what they say
> they believe.
>
Snort.. Well, first of, I don't buy, myself, into the BS idea that the
nuclear family is anything but a fiction, that people don't cheat a lot,
and just fail to get caught, that relationships are some magic thing
that last forever, or a long list of other things that would be required
for the term "family values" to even mean a damn thing in the first
place. Whether or not someone cheats on their wife, even serially
doesn't say a damn thing about anything else they do. I would,
personally vote for a bloody swinger, polyamorist, etc., if their ideas
where not complete bullshit. The problem is, in a nutshell, that "family
values" are nothing more, in reality than the low hanging fruit. They
are the means by which some ass can convince the gullible, who think
that having the pretense of holding such values, somehow extend those
values into the rest of everything else they do, and can therefor be
"trusted". There are people that I know would never break those rules,
but whom I wouldn't elect to be bloody dog catcher, because their self
righteous tendencies, which let them adhere to such tendencies in the
first place, make them unfit to make dynamic, variable, spur of the
moment, decisions, based on the information available, instead of
defaulting back to some stupid dogmatic solution, which failed the last
5,000 times, but is "acceptable, and traditional, and adheres to their
personal faith/ideals about how the world really functions."
Yeah, they should be judged by what they do, depending on whether or not
what ever they did has jack shit to do with what ever the problem really
is. The real problem isn't whether or not they are a cheating scumbag -
its whether or not they hide it, them lie about it, while claiming to
believe in the fiction of "sanctity of marriage". Because, if they are
willing to do that, then they will cheat at other things, hide the fact
they are doing it, and then lie their asses off, when caught, just like
with their sex lives.
Like I said - I have no problem, at all, with an honest swinger (and to
be factual, there are many cases where that honesty has allowed
marriages to survive, where hiding it from the spouse **always** fails
to work), than someone that claims their whole entire existence is based
on **never ever** doing such things, and gets caught doing it anyway.
It would be really refreshing to deal with adults, instead of people
that instantly become petulant 6 year olds, the moment someone is caught
playing with someone else's toy. But, instead, what we get is a bunch of
six year olds, with a range of views from, "I am taking my toys and
leaving!", to, "It wasn't me, someone else did it!", to ,"Mine, mine,
mine!", to, "I am going to tell on you!". Even when it gets as far as a
divorce, its more 6 year old behavior - what matters isn't the kids, and
what its doing to them, its who gets to keep the toys, and whether or
not that is sufficient a bargaining chip to let the other one keep the
kids instead. Where the F are the adults in any of it?
There certainly is never one single scrap of honestly, or mutual respect
involved, or the other person in the relationship would be the first one
to find out, not the press, and the outcome would be based on a sane
discussion, not a hissy fit.
But, yeah, this is par for the course. And, like I said, its the "low
hanging fruit", which is why its the #1 thing all the smear tactic
people look for. Too much of a public is much more concerned, or can be
made to be concerned (like with Clinton) with whether or not something
got kept in someone's pants, or who they showed it to, if it wasn't,
than whether or not they actually ***did*** anything with their time in
office. Its like watching kids on a playground pick who they will
associate with, and seeing some poor kid get kicked to the side, because
the school's "in crowd" got there first and declared, "She has
cooties!", causing most of the whole class to shun them.
Again, where the hell are the adults in the room? "Family Values" is a
lie right from the start, almost nothing they say when talking about it
isn't against women's health, or women's rights, or gays, or life
choices they don't like, or anything else they can lump into the thing.
Its all about what people shouldn't be, and jack to do, save by a very
convoluted and paranoid course, with anything involved the well being of
families. But, when its used as a weapon against and opponent, over some
"choice" they have made... it always becomes a) school yard bullshit,
and b) a sort of glaring hypocrisy. But, since the whole concept is a
nest of delusions in the first place, the second effect is hardly a
surprise.
--
Commander Vimes: "You take a bunch of people who don't seem any
different from you and me, but when you add them all together you get
this sort of huge raving maniac with national borders and an anthem."
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On 7/26/2014 11:35 PM, Jim Henderson wrote:
> The point at which it's a problem for me is when someone's imposing their
> beliefs on someone else. I despise SCOTUS' recent decision allowing a
> corporation to hold religious beliefs (say what?) and to impose those
> beliefs on their employees (in the form of not allowing their corporate-
> provided health care plan to cover certain forms of contraception,
> because the 'corporation' believes - inaccurately, I might add - that
> those drugs are 'sinful' because they cause abortions (which they don't)).
>
And, of course, despite the supposed "limited scope" of this, it took
the lawyers less than 10 seconds to expand that to include every
bullshit lawsuit currently in the works that involves a company having
to accommodate **anything** hey didn't like, and SCOTUS less than 24
hours to not only approve of at least some of those expansions, but to
create one of their own.
But, its like.. limited, so, we don't really need to worry, and stuff..
--
Commander Vimes: "You take a bunch of people who don't seem any
different from you and me, but when you add them all together you get
this sort of huge raving maniac with national borders and an anthem."
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On 7/27/2014 4:43 PM, Jim Henderson wrote:
> On Sun, 27 Jul 2014 16:34:10 -0700, Patrick Elliott wrote:
>
>> But, you nailed the real issue straight on. The only time
>> they change their opinions, only, not really, is if they think it might
>> somehow damage their chances of being reelected.
>
> Yep.
>
> It's like the phrase "representative democracy" means "our constituents
> represent our views" (hence gerrymandering) rather than the other way
> around.
>
> Jim
>
So, how long do you think it will be before "representative" comes to
mean, "We frame a copy of a constitution, as a 'representation' of what
we imagine the country should be like, but put a caption some place on
it that says, 'Actual model may not reflect plans.'?" lol
BTW, interesting fact from Arizona. Seems they have decided that an ID
needs to be updated to be valid, for someone that is 21, regardless of
which state issued it. So, as of June 24th, in Arizona, it doesn't
matter if you have an ID, or license, which shows that you are 21 now,
if you showed up from, say NY, with 4 year old ID, but which is still
valid until, say 2015, which said you turned 21 yesterday, you have **no
right** in Arizona to purchase alcohol, because your ID, is deemed
"invalid" for that purpose, since there is more than a 30 day difference
between the issuance date, and the time you turned 21.
Yep, you can't get a new one, short of going home, you have the right,
based on the law, to purchase, but you can't without the ID, which is
now deemed invalid, due to you not updating it, which you didn't know
you needed to do, before coming to the state..
Rights? Oh, those are those things that they say you have, but you
don't, unless they say they will let you have them, or have paid the
right fee for? Got it...
--
Commander Vimes: "You take a bunch of people who don't seem any
different from you and me, but when you add them all together you get
this sort of huge raving maniac with national borders and an anthem."
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Am 27.07.2014 08:35, schrieb Jim Henderson:
> I despise SCOTUS' recent decision allowing a
> corporation to hold religious beliefs (say what?) and to impose those
> beliefs on their employees
You're kiddin', right? Tell me that you're kiddin'...
Must be a renewable energy thing. Certainly. They must have mounted
Benjamin Franklin's coffin to a shaft turning a generator, and now want
to see how fast they can get that poor old chap to spin.
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On Sun, 27 Jul 2014 17:15:41 -0700, Patrick Elliott wrote:
> On 7/27/2014 4:43 PM, Jim Henderson wrote:
>> On Sun, 27 Jul 2014 16:34:10 -0700, Patrick Elliott wrote:
>>
>>> But, you nailed the real issue straight on. The only time
>>> they change their opinions, only, not really, is if they think it
>>> might somehow damage their chances of being reelected.
>>
>> Yep.
>>
>> It's like the phrase "representative democracy" means "our constituents
>> represent our views" (hence gerrymandering) rather than the other way
>> around.
>>
>> Jim
>>
> So, how long do you think it will be before "representative" comes to
> mean, "We frame a copy of a constitution, as a 'representation' of what
> we imagine the country should be like, but put a caption some place on
> it that says, 'Actual model may not reflect plans.'?" lol
Good question, hopefully it won't come to that.
> BTW, interesting fact from Arizona. Seems they have decided that an ID
> needs to be updated to be valid, for someone that is 21, regardless of
> which state issued it. So, as of June 24th, in Arizona, it doesn't
> matter if you have an ID, or license, which shows that you are 21 now,
> if you showed up from, say NY, with 4 year old ID, but which is still
> valid until, say 2015, which said you turned 21 yesterday, you have **no
> right** in Arizona to purchase alcohol, because your ID, is deemed
> "invalid" for that purpose, since there is more than a 30 day difference
> between the issuance date, and the time you turned 21.
>
> Yep, you can't get a new one, short of going home, you have the right,
> based on the law, to purchase, but you can't without the ID, which is
> now deemed invalid, due to you not updating it, which you didn't know
> you needed to do, before coming to the state..
>
> Rights? Oh, those are those things that they say you have, but you
> don't, unless they say they will let you have them, or have paid the
> right fee for? Got it...
That's actually something broader that I've wondered about for a while -
after I got laid off 3 years ago, I found that I had misplaced my social
security card. To get it replaced, I needed a photo ID, and my passport
was also expired, and I needed to renew my driver's license that year.
Now, in order to get a new social security card, an expired passport is
considered legal ID. But it isn't for a driver's license. But a social
security card *is* (which,for those outside the US, is a form of ID that
isn't a photo ID).
So ....
I had to renew my social security card first, then I could renew my
driver's license, and then I could renew my passport, as I recall. All
because the feds will take an expired passport but the state wouldn't.
My wife's driver's license was an entirely different fiasco. Her legal
name is "Amelia", but that's not the name on her birth certificate. When
she renewed her driver's license in Utah (2 months before we moved and
had to renew in Utah before moving to Washington - and then having to get
a new license here), they told her because her license and her passport
were expired, she had to have the incorrect name on her license. EVEN
THOUGH her previous license had her correct legal name on it. Her
passport also had her correct legal name on it, but because the passport
was expired, the DMV wouldn't accept it as valid ID either.
So she got it done with the wrong name on it. We moved, and Washington
did the same thing - current license has the wrong name on it, renewed
passport hadn't arrived yet, so they issued it with the wrong name.
In spite of actually having expired documentation with the correct name
on it, neither state would issue her a correct driver's license.
Jim
--
"I learned long ago, never to wrestle with a pig. You get dirty, and
besides, the pig likes it." - George Bernard Shaw
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On Mon, 28 Jul 2014 03:46:02 +0200, clipka wrote:
> Am 27.07.2014 08:35, schrieb Jim Henderson:
>
>> I despise SCOTUS' recent decision allowing a corporation to hold
>> religious beliefs (say what?) and to impose those beliefs on their
>> employees
>
> You're kiddin', right? Tell me that you're kiddin'...
Hobby Lobby? Tell me you're kiddin' about not hearing about that.
> Must be a renewable energy thing. Certainly. They must have mounted
> Benjamin Franklin's coffin to a shaft turning a generator, and now want
> to see how fast they can get that poor old chap to spin.
LOL - yes, you're kidding about not having heard about it. ;)
Jim
--
"I learned long ago, never to wrestle with a pig. You get dirty, and
besides, the pig likes it." - George Bernard Shaw
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On Sun, 27 Jul 2014 17:06:31 -0700, Patrick Elliott wrote:
> On 7/26/2014 11:35 PM, Jim Henderson wrote:
>> The point at which it's a problem for me is when someone's imposing
>> their beliefs on someone else. I despise SCOTUS' recent decision
>> allowing a corporation to hold religious beliefs (say what?) and to
>> impose those beliefs on their employees (in the form of not allowing
>> their corporate- provided health care plan to cover certain forms of
>> contraception, because the 'corporation' believes - inaccurately, I
>> might add - that those drugs are 'sinful' because they cause abortions
>> (which they don't)).
>>
> And, of course, despite the supposed "limited scope" of this, it took
> the lawyers less than 10 seconds to expand that to include every
> bullshit lawsuit currently in the works that involves a company having
> to accommodate **anything** hey didn't like, and SCOTUS less than 24
> hours to not only approve of at least some of those expansions, but to
> create one of their own.
>
> But, its like.. limited, so, we don't really need to worry, and stuff..
Yep. As the judges in the minority predicted, even.
Jim
--
"I learned long ago, never to wrestle with a pig. You get dirty, and
besides, the pig likes it." - George Bernard Shaw
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On Sun, 27 Jul 2014 17:01:47 -0700, Patrick Elliott wrote:
>> What we need to do, I think, is instill the idea that actions speak
>> louder than words in the youth.
>>
> That is what lawyers, smear campaigns, public image consultants and
> keeping your own life as private as possible, while digging up someone
> else's as much as possible, are for, right?
Well, that brings up another issue, though - the news media telling
people what to think instead of reporting the actual facts.
>> Someone who's all in favor of "family values" but is actually a serial
>> cheating scumbag can be judged based on what they do, not what they say
>> they believe.
>>
> Snort.. Well, first of, I don't buy, myself, into the BS idea that the
> nuclear family is anything but a fiction, that people don't cheat a lot,
> and just fail to get caught, that relationships are some magic thing
> that last forever, or a long list of other things that would be required
> for the term "family values" to even mean a damn thing in the first
> place.
Well, there are ideals that we can strive towards, certainly. The
problem I have is when some politicians hold their opponents to a
standard and then it turns out that they've not lived their own lives to
that standard.
I've been lucky - not perfect, but lucky - and have a strong, stable
relationship that is a lasting relationship.
> Whether or not someone cheats on their wife, even serially
> doesn't say a damn thing about anything else they do. I would,
> personally vote for a bloody swinger, polyamorist, etc., if their ideas
> where not complete bullshit.
That's the thing - I'm more interested in the ideas than the
personality. Someone who's got a track record of implementing ideas I
can get behind is someone I can vote for. If they have problems keeping
it in their pants, well, as long as that doesn't affect their ability to
do their job, it's not my business.
> It would be really refreshing to deal with adults, instead of people
> that instantly become petulant 6 year olds, the moment someone is caught
> playing with someone else's toy.
Yes. This.
Jim
--
"I learned long ago, never to wrestle with a pig. You get dirty, and
besides, the pig likes it." - George Bernard Shaw
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Am 28.07.2014 04:30, schrieb Jim Henderson:
> On Mon, 28 Jul 2014 03:46:02 +0200, clipka wrote:
>
>> Am 27.07.2014 08:35, schrieb Jim Henderson:
>>
>>> I despise SCOTUS' recent decision allowing a corporation to hold
>>> religious beliefs (say what?) and to impose those beliefs on their
>>> employees
>>
>> You're kiddin', right? Tell me that you're kiddin'...
>
> Hobby Lobby? Tell me you're kiddin' about not hearing about that.
Huh? Hobby Lobby is obviously an American franchise (at least from what
I've just looked up on the 'net), so why sould I, as a German, know
anything about it?
As for that SCOTUS' (heck, even had to look that up, too) decision, over
here in Germany the media don't really cover such petty US American
internal affairs.
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