On Thu, 24 Jul 2014 06:09:46 -0400, James Holsenback wrote:

> LOL ... maybe that's where I'm living! My next door neighbor has a large
> "God Delivers" sign in his front yard. Now he's a pleasant enough
> fellow,
> who has been going through a rather rough patch lately. He's never tired
> to sermonize but I often felt the urge to ask him ... how's that working
> out for ya!

The illogic of the belief is that when things DO improve, that's the 
point where God has come through for him.

I've got family who have been through terrible cancer, and they praise 
God for helping them get through it.

I would never, ever put someone in that position through having to reason 
through "if God was on my side, why the hell did I get cancer in the 
first place?" though.

Although I did ask a coworker once "If angels exist, were the all on 
vacation on 9/11?"  That provoked a very thoughtful discussion, 
ultimately he couldn't disagree with me.  (This was a coworker who I was 
- and still am - good friends with.)

Jim



-- 
"I learned long ago, never to wrestle with a pig. You get dirty, and 
besides, the pig likes it." - George Bernard Shaw

Post a reply to this message

On Thu, 24 Jul 2014 16:36:46 +0200, clipka wrote:

> Am 24.07.2014 12:09, schrieb James Holsenback:
> 
>> LOL ... maybe that's where I'm living! My next door neighbor has a
>> large "God Delivers" sign in his front yard.
> 
> I thought it was Virgin Mary who had done the delivering job... did I
> miss something? :-P

LOL



-- 
"I learned long ago, never to wrestle with a pig. You get dirty, and 
besides, the pig likes it." - George Bernard Shaw

Post a reply to this message

Jim Henderson <nos### [at] nospamcom> wrote:
> Distrust of atheists is high enough that most people won't vote for a 
> politician who says they're an atheist.  Hell, Barney Frank - the first 
> openly gay US senator - came out as an atheist only *after* he retired.  
> It was safer (for his career) for him to be out as gay than out as an 
> atheist.

Something like 20 or 30 years ago it was basically a political suicide
in the United States to openly declare your religion, because that would
have driven away at least half of your voters.

"Oh, he's a Catholic. Those aren't even real Christians! I'm certainly
not voting for him!"

"Oh, he's a Pentecostal. Those are crazy cultists! I'm not voting for him!"

"Oh, he's a Mormon..."

At some point this got changed and reverse. Nowadays it's a political
suicide to *not* declare your religion. You can be even a Mormon and
still have a good chance at precidency. Even Christians who completely
abhor mormonism (with its teachings about multiple gods, how people
become gods, baptizing for the dead, temple rituals etc.) will actually
try to find excuses and rationalize how it's not that bad. At least they
believe in God... (or at least a slightly similar version of God than
the more traditional one. Let's just pretend that mormonism doesn't
teach that God has a wife etc...)

-- 
                                                          - Warp

Post a reply to this message

On Fri, 25 Jul 2014 01:28:54 -0400, Warp wrote:

> Jim Henderson <nos### [at] nospamcom> wrote:
>> Distrust of atheists is high enough that most people won't vote for a
>> politician who says they're an atheist.  Hell, Barney Frank - the first
>> openly gay US senator - came out as an atheist only *after* he retired.
>> It was safer (for his career) for him to be out as gay than out as an
>> atheist.
> 
> Something like 20 or 30 years ago it was basically a political suicide
> in the United States to openly declare your religion, because that would
> have driven away at least half of your voters.

Well, 20-30 years ago, basically, you couldn't say you were Catholic, 
because the problem there was not that the candidate isn't a "real" 
Christian, but rather the impression was that given a choice between 
deciding on a course of action that was good for the country or doing 
what the Pope said, it was assumed that the President would be answerable 
to the Pope, and that would make the US a de-facto subject of the Vatican.

> "Oh, he's a Catholic. Those aren't even real Christians! I'm certainly
> not voting for him!"
> 
> "Oh, he's a Pentecostal. Those are crazy cultists! I'm not voting for
> him!"

Protestantism would be the safest form of Christianity for a politician 
at those times, and it would just be assumed to be the case.

> "Oh, he's a Mormon..."
> 
> At some point this got changed and reverse. Nowadays it's a political
> suicide to *not* declare your religion. You can be even a Mormon and
> still have a good chance at precidency. 

Romney never really had a good chance at being the president.  That 
entire election was nothing more than a fiasco for the GOP.

> Even Christians who completely
> abhor mormonism (with its teachings about multiple gods, how people
> become gods, baptizing for the dead, temple rituals etc.) will actually
> try to find excuses and rationalize how it's not that bad. At least they
> believe in God... (or at least a slightly similar version of God than
> the more traditional one. Let's just pretend that mormonism doesn't
> teach that God has a wife etc...)

Well, there are a lot of things that didn't become an issue for the 
general public, partly because Romney wouldn't really talk about what he 
believes or what his church practices.  I may not have liked him as a 
candidate or as a person, but I can respect him for saying "that's not 
what this election is about" and refusing to talk about his faith.  If he 
had been elected, I actually think he would have not had his faith be 
front and center, because he didn't want it in the spotlight.  He 
considered it to be a very personal thing, and not relevant to his policy 
choices.

But there's still no way I would have voted for him.  But I do wish more 
candidates would say "you know what?  My beliefs are not your business, 
they're mine." - and then left it at that, and let their actions rather 
than their beliefs (or perceptions about their beliefs) be what they were 
judged on by the electorate.

Jim
-- 
"I learned long ago, never to wrestle with a pig. You get dirty, and 
besides, the pig likes it." - George Bernard Shaw

Post a reply to this message

On 7/24/2014 9:23 AM, Jim Henderson wrote:
> On Thu, 24 Jul 2014 05:36:00 -0400, James Holsenback wrote:
>
>>> Love and tolerance indeed...
>>>
>>>
>> and obviously telling lies isn't that big of a deal either ...
>
> Well, that depends.  If you're a Republican and do all the "Jesus is
> Lord" stuff, then you can practically get away with murder and not have
> to leave office.
>
> If you're a Democrat and you send a sext to someone, you are forced to
> resign in disgrace.
>
> While both sides have examples that contradict, overwhelmingly, if you're
> a Republican elected official and you get mired in a sex scandal or
> something, you aren't forced to leave office.
>
> Jim
>
Gosh, of course not. As long as your diddling Jesus in the restrooms, 
along with whom ever else you had a scandal with, its all forgiven. 
Didn't you know this? lol

-- 
Commander Vimes: "You take a bunch of people who don't seem any 
different from you and me, but when you add them all together you get 
this sort of huge raving maniac with national borders and an anthem."

Post a reply to this message

On 7/24/2014 9:19 AM, Jim Henderson wrote:
> On Thu, 24 Jul 2014 04:48:34 -0400, Warp wrote:
>
>> I hear there are still some places in the US where there are basically
>> closet atheists who pretend to be Christians because else they would be
>> shunned and discriminated against.
>
> Actually, a more accurate way to say that at the moment would be that
> there are some places where it's OK to be an out Atheist.
>
> It's gotten better in the past few years, but, particularly in small
> towns in the south, it can be extremely difficult to be an out Atheist.
>
Yeah, most of those places being the wrong religion, and questioning why 
some "public" event is opened with a prayer to the god of right wing 
evangelicalism, instead of just about anything else, will get you run 
out of town. These places only play lip service to the usual lie that 
Jews, Christians, and for some reason, Buddhists are all welcome (the 
three faiths most often quoted by idiots claiming they are "inclusive"), 
but everyone else will burn in hell. If you actually make a complaint 
while being the wrong one of these, or almost worse, one of those damn 
"liberal" Christians and you might as well be black, 50+ years ago, with 
a sheet factory down the street from you.


-- 
Commander Vimes: "You take a bunch of people who don't seem any 
different from you and me, but when you add them all together you get 
this sort of huge raving maniac with national borders and an anthem."

Post a reply to this message

On 7/25/2014 12:10 AM, Jim Henderson wrote:
> Well, there are a lot of things that didn't become an issue for the
> general public, partly because Romney wouldn't really talk about what he
> believes or what his church practices.  I may not have liked him as a
> candidate or as a person, but I can respect him for saying "that's not
> what this election is about" and refusing to talk about his faith.  If he
> had been elected, I actually think he would have not had his faith be
> front and center, because he didn't want it in the spotlight.  He
> considered it to be a very personal thing, and not relevant to his policy
> choices.
>
On that note - what the hell where his policies exactly, I never noted 
him actually pinning any down, really, unless, "I picked a Tea Party nut 
to replace me, should my brain melt down while trying to figure out what 
I actually believe this week, and the VP has to take over."? lol


-- 
Commander Vimes: "You take a bunch of people who don't seem any 
different from you and me, but when you add them all together you get 
this sort of huge raving maniac with national borders and an anthem."

Post a reply to this message

On Fri, 25 Jul 2014 06:51:35 -0700, Patrick Elliott wrote:

> On 7/24/2014 9:23 AM, Jim Henderson wrote:
>> On Thu, 24 Jul 2014 05:36:00 -0400, James Holsenback wrote:
>>
>>>> Love and tolerance indeed...
>>>>
>>>>
>>> and obviously telling lies isn't that big of a deal either ...
>>
>> Well, that depends.  If you're a Republican and do all the "Jesus is
>> Lord" stuff, then you can practically get away with murder and not have
>> to leave office.
>>
>> If you're a Democrat and you send a sext to someone, you are forced to
>> resign in disgrace.
>>
>> While both sides have examples that contradict, overwhelmingly, if
>> you're a Republican elected official and you get mired in a sex scandal
>> or something, you aren't forced to leave office.
>>
>> Jim
>>
> Gosh, of course not. As long as your diddling Jesus in the restrooms,
> along with whom ever else you had a scandal with, its all forgiven.
> Didn't you know this? lol

*snortlaugh*



-- 
"I learned long ago, never to wrestle with a pig. You get dirty, and 
besides, the pig likes it." - George Bernard Shaw

Post a reply to this message

On Fri, 25 Jul 2014 07:00:22 -0700, Patrick Elliott wrote:

> On 7/25/2014 12:10 AM, Jim Henderson wrote:
>> Well, there are a lot of things that didn't become an issue for the
>> general public, partly because Romney wouldn't really talk about what
>> he believes or what his church practices.  I may not have liked him as
>> a candidate or as a person, but I can respect him for saying "that's
>> not what this election is about" and refusing to talk about his faith. 
>> If he had been elected, I actually think he would have not had his
>> faith be front and center, because he didn't want it in the spotlight. 
>> He considered it to be a very personal thing, and not relevant to his
>> policy choices.
>>
> On that note - what the hell where his policies exactly, I never noted
> him actually pinning any down, really, unless, "I picked a Tea Party nut
> to replace me, should my brain melt down while trying to figure out what
> I actually believe this week, and the VP has to take over."? lol

Yeah, that was also a big problem with him - his stated policies and past 
policy decisions didn't line up very well, and he was all over the board 
on what he was for.  Most of his campaigning was based on "I'm against 
what Obama's doing".

Pretty glad the electorate didn't fall for *that*, even though I'm not 
very happy with Obama's stand on intellectual property and privacy 
issues.  Right now, neither party is making me very happy.

Jim



-- 
"I learned long ago, never to wrestle with a pig. You get dirty, and 
besides, the pig likes it." - George Bernard Shaw

Post a reply to this message

On Fri, 25 Jul 2014 06:57:07 -0700, Patrick Elliott wrote:

> On 7/24/2014 9:19 AM, Jim Henderson wrote:
>> On Thu, 24 Jul 2014 04:48:34 -0400, Warp wrote:
>>
>>> I hear there are still some places in the US where there are basically
>>> closet atheists who pretend to be Christians because else they would
>>> be shunned and discriminated against.
>>
>> Actually, a more accurate way to say that at the moment would be that
>> there are some places where it's OK to be an out Atheist.
>>
>> It's gotten better in the past few years, but, particularly in small
>> towns in the south, it can be extremely difficult to be an out Atheist.
>>
> Yeah, most of those places being the wrong religion, and questioning why
> some "public" event is opened with a prayer to the god of right wing
> evangelicalism, instead of just about anything else, will get you run
> out of town. These places only play lip service to the usual lie that
> Jews, Christians, and for some reason, Buddhists are all welcome (the
> three faiths most often quoted by idiots claiming they are "inclusive"),
> but everyone else will burn in hell. If you actually make a complaint
> while being the wrong one of these, or almost worse, one of those damn
> "liberal" Christians and you might as well be black, 50+ years ago, with
> a sheet factory down the street from you.

I find it particularly disturbing that SCOTUS thinks that it's OK to have 
religious invocations at government functions - because *that* makes 
everyone feel like the city/state/locality will treat them equally if 
they're not Christian.  Yup, uh-huh.

And unicorns exist.  Really.

Jim



-- 
"I learned long ago, never to wrestle with a pig. You get dirty, and 
besides, the pig likes it." - George Bernard Shaw

Post a reply to this message