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On Thu, 10 Apr 2014 08:15:26 +0100, Orchid Win7 v1 wrote:
>>> Heck, in OpenSUSE 13.1, they even took away the scrollbar and replaced
>>> it with a page-selector widget. The entire design seems focused on
>>> touchscreens.
>>
>> I run 13.1 on two machines every day with GNOME3. I've no idea what
>> you're talking about - I've got scrollbars in my newsreader (pan), for
>> example, and they work like scrollbars.
>
> https://news.opensuse.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/11/Application-
Launching-GNOME-13.1.png
>
> You see those three dots on the right-hand edge? That used to be a
> scrollbar. And now it's three dots. Clicking one takes you to that page.
> Because clicking a dot is easy, but dragging a scrollbar is hard, when
> all you have is a touchscreen.
I don't actually see that when I go to the activities screen. I see the
apps that are running.
But I would be surprised if the mouse scrollwheel doesn't let you switch
from page to page there.
In applications themselves (which is what I thought you were talking
about, and what I was talking about), the scrollbar is present if needed.
>> Yep, and you can see the effects of this with some poorly written
>> extensions. The GNOME developers *really* need to harden the error
>> handling a bit more.
>
> Tell me about it. Right about the time they start *documenting* how this
> stuff is meant to work. (I still find it astonishing that this much code
> has been written given that there is NO DOCUMENTATION!)
Well, I'm sure there's some, and it's not the source code, but I haven't
needed to write an extension yet, so I haven't really gone looking for it
yet.
But if I were, I might be inclined to look at the code for another
extension to see how it does it.
>> And the extensions system in GNOME3 has allowed those who preferred
>> GNOME2 to get some semblance of the functionality they were used to.
>>
>> I don't really care about the DE myself; GNOME3 is less distracting for
>> me than KDE, which is why I use it - I'm more interested in apps and
>> getting work done than tweaking my desktop endlessly. ;)
>
> Yeah, well, we're trying to alter the DE so that you can only run our
> app with it. That's quite a non-standard task...
I think there is a lockdown app for openSUSE. You might ask on the
openSUSE forums if anyone has experience with doing that sort of thing.
Jim
--
"I learned long ago, never to wrestle with a pig. You get dirty, and
besides, the pig likes it." - George Bernard Shaw
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>>> Yep, and you can see the effects of this with some poorly written
>>> extensions. The GNOME developers *really* need to harden the error
>>> handling a bit more.
>>
>> Tell me about it. Right about the time they start *documenting* how this
>> stuff is meant to work. (I still find it astonishing that this much code
>> has been written given that there is NO DOCUMENTATION!)
>
> Well, I'm sure there's some, and it's not the source code, but I haven't
> needed to write an extension yet, so I haven't really gone looking for it
> yet.
>
> But if I were, I might be inclined to look at the code for another
> extension to see how it does it.
...and thus, if one person finds a flawed but superficially working way
to do something, everybody will copy their mistake. Because there's no
documentation on the "correct" way to do it.
Even then, I'm surprised this much code has been written. I spent
literally *weeks* trying to comprehend the code of several extensions I
looked at. To this day I literally cannot work out how the hell it
actually works. It's just SO COMPLICATED to do even the most trivial
task with this stuff...
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On Thu, 10 Apr 2014 18:27:33 +0100, Orchid Win7 v1 wrote:
>>>> Yep, and you can see the effects of this with some poorly written
>>>> extensions. The GNOME developers *really* need to harden the error
>>>> handling a bit more.
>>>
>>> Tell me about it. Right about the time they start *documenting* how
>>> this stuff is meant to work. (I still find it astonishing that this
>>> much code has been written given that there is NO DOCUMENTATION!)
>>
>> Well, I'm sure there's some, and it's not the source code, but I
>> haven't needed to write an extension yet, so I haven't really gone
>> looking for it yet.
>>
>> But if I were, I might be inclined to look at the code for another
>> extension to see how it does it.
>
> ...and thus, if one person finds a flawed but superficially working way
> to do something, everybody will copy their mistake. Because there's no
> documentation on the "correct" way to do it.
I don't debate that, but I would tend to use code from a well-thought-of
extension. You can get some credibility from the GNOME developers.
> Even then, I'm surprised this much code has been written. I spent
> literally *weeks* trying to comprehend the code of several extensions I
> looked at. To this day I literally cannot work out how the hell it
> actually works. It's just SO COMPLICATED to do even the most trivial
> task with this stuff...
I do agree that better documentation is needed, along with sample code.
Jim
--
"I learned long ago, never to wrestle with a pig. You get dirty, and
besides, the pig likes it." - George Bernard Shaw
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On 06/04/2014 16:16, Jim Henderson wrote:
> On Sun, 06 Apr 2014 15:35:41 +0100, Stephen wrote:
>
>> >It is a Win8 machine.
>> >
>> >I hate Win8
>> >
>> >Does anyone know of a "how to do things in Win8 that was easy in Win7",
>> >tutorial?
> fdisk
>
That's looking like a very attractive option. ATM.
I've spent most of the day trying to make this Win8 machine, and I use
that word loosely, dual boot. I've created partitions, I've deleted
partitions, I've made bootable thumb drives. I've been unable to boot at
all. I've changed settings in the BIOS as if I were testing a truth table.
But at least I have three logical discs instead on one big one.
And to top it all. Elite Dangerous wont run on it. And runs like a pig
on my old one.
Not to mention Thomas will be bending my ear because I should have been
talking to the TC-RTC's coder. </end guilt>
That is coming along well, by the way and we should be ready to test
running two Challenges in parallel. Very soon. :-D
> Install openSUSE.;)
Only if you set it up for me. ;-)
Dr John promised he would do it, years ago. Now he has gone AWOL again.
I'll take it into to work and see if I can bribe one of the IT guys with
two pizza to F*ck it up really good. :-)
If I'm going to break the warranty I'll do it properly.
--
Regards
Stephen
I solemnly promise to kick the next angle, I see.
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On 13/04/2014 00:22, Stephen wrote:
> On 06/04/2014 16:16, Jim Henderson wrote:
>> fdisk
I thought you meant low level format.
Nowadays it is diskpart .
--
Regards
Stephen
I solemnly promise to kick the next angle, I see.
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On Sun, 13 Apr 2014 00:22:54 +0100, Stephen wrote:
>> fdisk
>>
> That's looking like a very attractive option. ATM.
:)
> I've spent most of the day trying to make this Win8 machine, and I use
> that word loosely, dual boot. I've created partitions, I've deleted
> partitions, I've made bootable thumb drives. I've been unable to boot at
> all. I've changed settings in the BIOS as if I were testing a truth
> table.
> But at least I have three logical discs instead on one big one.
> And to top it all. Elite Dangerous wont run on it. And runs like a pig
> on my old one.
Dual booting what? One of the odd things with Win8 is that it's got this
"fast boot" option that caches some stuff (as I understand it) and that
"feature" speeds up Win8 booting at the expense of dual boot
functionality being horribly broken and nonfunctional.
> Not to mention Thomas will be bending my ear because I should have been
> talking to the TC-RTC's coder. </end guilt>
>
> That is coming along well, by the way and we should be ready to test
> running two Challenges in parallel. Very soon. :-D
>
>
>> Install openSUSE.;)
>
> Only if you set it up for me. ;-)
Remotely is a bit of a challenge. Is it a UEFI system with secure
boot? :)
> Dr John promised he would do it, years ago. Now he has gone AWOL again.
> I'll take it into to work and see if I can bribe one of the IT guys with
> two pizza to F*ck it up really good. :-)
Maybe we just need to start another game to get him to reappear. ;)
> If I'm going to break the warranty I'll do it properly.
I never worry about breaking the warranty - worst case, you wipe the
drive and say "I dunno what happened". :)
Jim
--
"I learned long ago, never to wrestle with a pig. You get dirty, and
besides, the pig likes it." - George Bernard Shaw
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On Sun, 13 Apr 2014 00:33:27 +0100, Stephen wrote:
> On 13/04/2014 00:22, Stephen wrote:
>> On 06/04/2014 16:16, Jim Henderson wrote:
>
>>> fdisk
>
> I thought you meant low level format.
> Nowadays it is diskpart .
That is more or less what I meant.
But yeah, it's changed. It's an old joke from my time on the Novell
forums on CompuServe. "We are the SysOps who say 'fdisk'!" - I have a t-
shirt or a CD case somewhere with that printed on it. :)
Jim
--
"I learned long ago, never to wrestle with a pig. You get dirty, and
besides, the pig likes it." - George Bernard Shaw
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>> fdisk
>>
> That's looking like a very attractive option. ATM.
>
> I've spent most of the day trying to make this Win8 machine, and I use
> that word loosely, dual boot. I've created partitions, I've deleted
> partitions, I've made bootable thumb drives. I've been unable to boot at
> all. I've changed settings in the BIOS as if I were testing a truth table.
BIOS?
Don't you mean UEFI? ;-)
And that might well be your problem. UEFI doesn't use the boot block *at
all* during the boot process; it uses its own completely new system of
booting...
...unless you turn on BIOS compatibility mode, in which case it works
just like before.
Oh, and did I mention? You may have Secure Boot turned on. If so, only
digitally signed operating systems (e.g., Windows 8) can be used.
Did I mention this has been the bane of my life for the past month?
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On 13/04/2014 10:02 AM, Orchid Win7 v1 wrote:
>>> fdisk
>>>
>> That's looking like a very attractive option. ATM.
>>
>> I've spent most of the day trying to make this Win8 machine, and I use
>> that word loosely, dual boot. I've created partitions, I've deleted
>> partitions, I've made bootable thumb drives. I've been unable to boot at
>> all. I've changed settings in the BIOS as if I were testing a truth
>> table.
>
> BIOS?
>
> Don't you mean UEFI? ;-)
>
Maybe I do. Maybe I don't ;-)
> And that might well be your problem. UEFI doesn't use the boot block *at
> all* during the boot process; it uses its own completely new system of
> booting...
>
>
So I found out.
Does message ring a bell?
Windows cannot be installed on this disk. The selected disk is of the
GPT partition style.
>
> ....unless you turn on BIOS compatibility mode, in which case it works
> just like before.
>
>
I turned the setting to legacy. Then it could not find a bootable disc.
And I could not install Win7 to make it bootable.
>
> Oh, and did I mention? You may have Secure Boot turned on. If so, only
> digitally signed operating systems (e.g., Windows 8) can be used.
>
I switched that off too.
>
> Did I mention this has been the bane of my life for the past month?
I don't think so. But I've not been keeping up with the newsgroups,
recently.
The whole thing is very annoying.
--
Regards
Stephen
I solemnly promise to kick the next angle, I see.
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>> And that might well be your problem. UEFI doesn't use the boot block *at
>> all* during the boot process; it uses its own completely new system of
>> booting...
>
> So I found out.
>
> Does message ring a bell?
>
> Windows cannot be installed on this disk. The selected disk is of the
> GPT partition style.
The whole thing should eventually make everybody's lives *easier*. GPT
is much simpler and more sane than the existing MBR nonsense. And the
EFI boot process is much simpler and easier to manage, with a butt-load
of useful new features.
Trouble is, all this stuff is brand-new. And consequently, a lot of it
seems to be buggy as hell! I couldn't even get the OpenSUSE installation
DVD to *boot* on our test laptop until I reflashed the firmware.
Apparently the firmware it was shipped with doesn't implement half the
functionality correctly, and it's only once you've updated it that
things start to work right.
The other sad thing is... EFI offers a whole bunch of new functionality
that is supposed to make our lives easier. But everybody is only
bothering to implement the parts of EFI required for Win8 certification.
(And sometimes not even all of that!) So it looks like all the old hacks
and workarounds for the BIOS being rubbish are going to be replaced by a
whole new generation of hacks and workarounds for EFI not being
implemented properly... *sigh*
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