scott <sco### [at] scottcom> wrote:
> If you're intelligent at something, doesn't that just mean you've spent 
> more time than most other people studying that something?

I think you are confusing intelligence with experience and/or knowledge.

You can become good or knowledgeable about something, that that's not
what's usually meant by "intelligent". Intelligence is more like your
inborn talent at performing certain deductive or creative tasks.

You can certainly train your deductive skills, but people with a
higher intelligence often find it easier and become more proficient
at it.

-- 
                                                          - Warp

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On 15/01/2014 6:42 PM, Jim Henderson wrote:
> On Wed, 15 Jan 2014 08:56:10 +0000, Stephen wrote:
>
>>> Apply for a job through me with one of those in your hand and I would
>>> be willing to give you a hearing. Come to me and say "I'm good but I
>>> can't be arsed to prove it"
>>
>> Sad really that, that attitude still exists.
>
> Boy, does it.  3 years, still looking for a full-time position because I
> don't have that damned piece of paper.
>

It is getting more prevalent here than it was when I was younger.
Fortunately, there is still the "proven track record" and "industrial 
experience" routes that allows my CV to get past the hurdles. After the 
Y2K slump I was desperate to get a permanent job but was never able to. 
Now I frequently get asked by agencies if I would consider one. I am not 
tempted to do the same work for lesser money and without the security 
permies had years ago. It is quite common for SAP consultants to be made 
redundant if their company cannot find them a new position within six 
months of finishing their last assignment.

-- 
Regards
     Stephen

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Doctor John <j.g### [at] gmailcom> wrote:
> Where's the difference?

I suppose that people perceive the difference between a sports club
and Mensa in that you usually join a sports club because it benefits
and helps with your hobby, ie. there are practical benefits in joining,
while joining Mensa is (perceived by most people as) just a badge of
honor which you can tout about, with no useful or practical purpose
other than bragging.

(And let me emphasize that's not what I think. It's just how most
people perceive it.)

Also, feeling inferior in mental capacity is a much more touchy
subject than feeling inferior eg. in soccer or throwing a javelin.

-- 
                                                          - Warp

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On 15/01/2014 5:15 PM, andrel wrote:
> Stephen, please, I know we don't have many women visitors here, but that
> is no reason to start to babble incoherently when one turns up.

I tell you what, Andrel. If Sherry does not see the humour in my 
writing. I will apologise unreservedly.
As for babbling, if you can cure the habit of lifetime. I am all ears.

-- 
Regards
     Stephen

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On Wed, 15 Jan 2014 08:50:58 +0200, Doctor John <j.g### [at] gmailcom>  
wrote:

> On 15/01/14 05:48, Sherry K. Shaw wrote:

>> Silly me...I thought it was about being able to walk into a room full of
>> people and have a conversation with some of them, without having to stop
>> and explain what I just said every couple of sentences.  Or, just
>> possibly, without having to face the sullen, cowlike stares of people
>> who assume that women cannot possibly be very bright.
>
> Hi, Sherry. Long time, no see.
> Unfortunately, there appear to be a few unreconstructed chauvinists on
> the group atm.

I think Gail left this group for the same reason...

-- 
-Nekar Xenos-

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On Wed, 15 Jan 2014 15:50:53 +0200, clipka <ano### [at] anonymousorg> wrote:

> Am 14.01.2014 23:10, schrieb Doctor John:

> Interestingly, in Einstein's days there apparently wasn't. He was a kind  
> of pop icon of his time.
>
..even though he stopped in the middle of the road when the "Don't Walk"  
light lit up :)

I think it was his wild hair that made him cool ;)

.. and his personality of course.

I think not many people liked Nikola Tesla back then. A lot more "nerds"  
like him now.

-- 
-Nekar Xenos-

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>> And someone please explain to me, what IQ is?
>
> IQ is a quantification of your intelligence in comparison to the average
> person of your age.

It is therefore fundamentally dependant on whatever the designer 
considers to be the "average person".

Also, I gather there are IQ systems with different standard deviation 
calibrations, and a score on one scale is not directly comparable with 
one on another scale.

Then again, whoever said intelligence was normally distributed?

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On 15/01/2014 08:58 AM, scott wrote:
> The problem is, and it's the same in the UK, it's "cool" to be dumb, or
> at least appear to be dumb.

This seems to be pretty much the root of it all.

You know, there *was* a time when great mathematicians, engineers, 
scientists and so forth were like revered deities. What the heck happened??

> I don't know how you would go about
> changing it, perhaps separate out by ability at a much earlier age?

The only thing I can think of is that if somebody does well at school, 
people hate them out of jealousy - and there's where this "cool to be 
dumb" crap comes from. If that's the psychology behind this, then more 
separation would just make the problem worse...

The actual solution? I have no idea.

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On Wed, 15 Jan 2014 19:11:31 +0000, Stephen wrote:

> On 15/01/2014 6:42 PM, Jim Henderson wrote:
>> On Wed, 15 Jan 2014 08:56:10 +0000, Stephen wrote:
>>
>>>> Apply for a job through me with one of those in your hand and I would
>>>> be willing to give you a hearing. Come to me and say "I'm good but I
>>>> can't be arsed to prove it"
>>>
>>> Sad really that, that attitude still exists.
>>
>> Boy, does it.  3 years, still looking for a full-time position because
>> I don't have that damned piece of paper.
>>
>>
> It is getting more prevalent here than it was when I was younger.
> Fortunately, there is still the "proven track record" and "industrial
> experience" routes that allows my CV to get past the hurdles. After the
> Y2K slump I was desperate to get a permanent job but was never able to.
> Now I frequently get asked by agencies if I would consider one. I am not
> tempted to do the same work for lesser money and without the security
> permies had years ago. It is quite common for SAP consultants to be made
> redundant if their company cannot find them a new position within six
> months of finishing their last assignment.

The challenge here, especially with larger companies, seems to be that to 
not get eliminated early on, you have to have the degree, or your CV is 
never even reviewed by a human.

So I have to take my advice to Andy repeatedly - trying to find an 
insider to walk my CV to the appropriate person so they actually *see* it.

I found a position posted a couple days ago with a well-known online 
retailer that I'm pretty excited about - it has to do with an internal 
certification program that's being developed, and I've got the exact 
skill set they're looking for.  But I suspect that if I go in through the 
front door, the right person will never even see it, so I'm mining my 
professional network for a connection that can help (I know one person at 
this company, which is weird considering how large they are).

Because if I can get past that first automated screening hurdle, my 
experience and proven track record are what they really need to see to 
know that I'm exactly the person they're looking for.

Jim

-- 
"I learned long ago, never to wrestle with a pig. You get dirty, and 
besides, the pig likes it." - George Bernard Shaw

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On Wed, 15 Jan 2014 21:00:54 +0000, Orchid Win7 v1 wrote:

> On 15/01/2014 08:58 AM, scott wrote:
>> The problem is, and it's the same in the UK, it's "cool" to be dumb, or
>> at least appear to be dumb.
> 
> This seems to be pretty much the root of it all.
> 
> You know, there *was* a time when great mathematicians, engineers,
> scientists and so forth were like revered deities. What the heck
> happened??

Everybody became a winner.  At least that's part of it.  If being smart 
were important, then an inability to apply one's knowledge wouldn't be 
regarded as "still worthy of a trophy of participation".

It's more complicated than that, but at least here in the US, this idea 
that everyone's a winner and nobody ever fails is a dangerous, dangerous 
precedent.

Jim
-- 
"I learned long ago, never to wrestle with a pig. You get dirty, and 
besides, the pig likes it." - George Bernard Shaw

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