Patrick Elliott <kag### [at] gmailcom> wrote:
> They 
> are just not so violently enforced, but, never the less, when, say.. a 
> rape happens, the first thing trotted out is a long list of excuses 
> about what she wore, did, thought, where she was, what she did/didn't 
> say, etc. And, worse, juries fall for that crap, including other women.

Sure, some people will use those things as excuses. However, I wouldn't
say it's the point.

The fact is, the risk of being raped can be affected by one's behavior
in the exact same way as the risk being mugged can be. If, for example,
a certain part of the city is known for the amount of crime, and you just
carelessly walk there alone in nice expensive clothes, don't be surprised
if you get mugged with a higher probability than if you were walking in
a busy mall, for instance. The fact is, you *can* affect the risks with
your actions.

Asking women questions about what they were doing, what they were wearing,
and where they had been can give us valuable information about certain
patterns that could ostensibly increase the risk of being raped. If,
for example, 90% of women who are raped in a certain city have certain
characteristics and/or were in a certain part of the city, we can deduce
that there's something common to these cases.

Telling a woman "you can decrease the risk of being raped by doing this"
is not victim blaming. It's pragmatism. It's no different from saying
things like "you should lock your doors before leaving home".

-- 
                                                          - Warp

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On Mon, 23 Dec 2013 15:27:13 +0200, Orchid Win7 v1 <voi### [at] devnull> wrote:

>>> One of the things I look for is WHY is this guy evil?
>>
>> Don't ask that, because we all know but fear the answer.
>>
>> You see it in the daily political discussions. Everywhere they shout: We
>> must fight against "terrorism"!
>>
>> But nearly no-one ask: Why do young men get so despaired in their lives,
>> that they bomb themselves away? Why are they so disappointed about our
>> world, about their future in this world that they hope for salvation in
>> a promised heaven?
>
> This is something I've never figured out.
>
> It's apparently no secret that the Muslims want us dead. But I haven't  
> got the vaguest idea *why*.
>

Koran 9:5 says to kill all non Muslims, unless they repent and become  
Muslims.



-- 
-Nekar Xenos-

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Nekar Xenos <nek### [at] gmailcom> wrote:
> Koran 9:5 says to kill all non Muslims, unless they repent and become  
> Muslims.

There are quite many passages in the koran that can be used to justify
murder. For instance 5:33 says:

"The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His apostle
and strive to make mischief in the land is only this, that they should
be murdered or crucified or their hands and their feet should be cut
off on opposite sides or they should be imprisoned; this shall be as a
disgrace for them in this world, and in the hereafter they shall have
a grievous chastisement."

In 9:29:

"Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that
forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor
acknowledge the Religion of Truth, from among the People of the Book,
until they pay the Jizyah with willing submission, and feel themselves
subdued."

These and many other passages are affirmed by the ahadith. For example:

Sahih al-Bukhari 6924:
Muhammad said: "I have been ordered to fight the people till they say:
La ilaha illallah (none has the right to be worshipped but Allah), and
whoever said La ilaha illahllah, Allah will save his property and his
life from me."

Sahih Muslim 30:
Muhammad said: "I have been commanded to fight against people so long
as they do not declare that there is no god but Allah."

-- 
                                                          - Warp

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Warp <war### [at] tagpovrayorg> wrote:
> Nekar Xenos <nek### [at] gmailcom> wrote:
> > Koran 9:5 says to kill all non Muslims, unless they repent and become
> > Muslims.
>
> There are quite many passages in the koran that can be used to justify
> murder.
>
Maybe I am wrong, but, of the three religions based on the Bible (Jewish,
Christian, Muslim), only the Christian's book don't justify or allow the murder.

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On Sun, 29 Dec 2013 16:49:01 +0200, Fractracer <lg.### [at] gmailcom> wrote:

> Warp <war### [at] tagpovrayorg> wrote:
>> Nekar Xenos <nek### [at] gmailcom> wrote:
>> > Koran 9:5 says to kill all non Muslims, unless they repent and become
>> > Muslims.
>>
>> There are quite many passages in the koran that can be used to justify
>> murder.
>>
> Maybe I am wrong, but, of the three religions based on the Bible (Jewish,
> Christian, Muslim), only the Christian's book don't justify or allow the  
> murder.
>
>
Jewish: Thou shalt not kill. There is also scripture that says to be  
hospitable to strangers. The only killing is specifically in a war  
situations concerning specific cities/towns. They basically use the same  
as the Old Testament of the Bible and a few other oral traditions.

Christian: Goes even further than being hospitable with "Love thine  
enemies". Jesus was a Jew. Christianity started with the Jewish religion,  
but Jesus fulfilled the difficult to complete laws and set them free from  
the law and gave them grace. Men, women and different races are all  
considered equal.

Muslim: Kill non-Muslims. In the Koran there are a few similarities to the  
Bible, but the details contradict and differ from the Bible. They believe  
in Creation, Adam and Eve, the flood, Moses and they believe the Jesus was  
a Prophet that never died. They believe Mohammad to have been the final  
prophet. Women are considered to have half the brainpower of a man.

-- 
-Nekar Xenos-

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> Patrick Elliott <kag### [at] gmailcom> wrote:
>> They stated that the reality was not what the
>> polls reflected. That the polls showed the "official" stance, the one
>> the members where worried someone might find out they disagreed with,
>> which someone more hardline might call them on, and they would get in
>> major trouble over, if they where found out, but that the reality was
>> that almost no one they knew actually thought that way in reality.
>
> That, in itself, is a big problem with many muslim subcultures in the
> west (ie. the peer pressure that doesn't seem to be as strong as ever.)
>
> As politically incorrect as it is to say, the culture itself is to blame,
> and muslims will not get over that problem until it's changed.
>

It's not only muslims that suffer from this.  In many parts of the world 
where Christianity still has a strong hold on society, you will see 
similar attitudes from people.  Case in point: A recent US study found 
that 1 pregnant woman in 200 "thought" she was still a virgin.  The 
authors of the study hypothecized that it was probably due to a mix of 
lack of sexual education leading with unsafe sexual activites, and fear 
of reprisal if they answered the survey truthfully.

> Of course the problem is only aggravated by the western mentality that
> says to them: "Your culture and your religion are very valuable, you
> should keep them, embrace them and treasure them. It's your cultural
> heritage and it would be a great loss if it were to be muddied and mixed
> with the western culture."
>
> This sentiment is very naive because it only thinks about the positive
> things of the exotic culture, completely ignoring the negative things,
> pretending that those are not *really* part of the culture. However,
> no matter how we try to pretend that it's not part of their culture,
> the sad fact is that it is, and we are only encouraging them to keep
> it that way and not making a change for the better.

[Devil's advocate]
I seem to remember you posting about Kantele and its probable 
disparition in the near future.

While Islam is nowhere near extinction, so it's not a fair comparision, 
you can't lament the loss of traditional Finnish culture, while at the 
same time criticizing others who want to preserve their own.
[/Devil's advocate]



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On Sun, 29 Dec 2013 17:22:51 +0200, Nekar Xenos wrote:

> On Sun, 29 Dec 2013 16:49:01 +0200, Fractracer <lg.### [at] gmailcom>
> wrote:
> 
>> Warp <war### [at] tagpovrayorg> wrote:
>>> Nekar Xenos <nek### [at] gmailcom> wrote:
>>> > Koran 9:5 says to kill all non Muslims, unless they repent and
>>> > become Muslims.
>>>
>>> There are quite many passages in the koran that can be used to justify
>>> murder.
>>>
>> Maybe I am wrong, but, of the three religions based on the Bible
>> (Jewish,
>> Christian, Muslim), only the Christian's book don't justify or allow
>> the murder.
>>
>>
> Jewish: Thou shalt not kill. There is also scripture that says to be
> hospitable to strangers. The only killing is specifically in a war
> situations concerning specific cities/towns. They basically use the same
> as the Old Testament of the Bible and a few other oral traditions.
> 
> Christian: Goes even further than being hospitable with "Love thine
> enemies". Jesus was a Jew. Christianity started with the Jewish
> religion, but Jesus fulfilled the difficult to complete laws and set
> them free from the law and gave them grace. Men, women and different
> races are all considered equal.
> 
> Muslim: Kill non-Muslims. In the Koran there are a few similarities to
> the Bible, but the details contradict and differ from the Bible. They
> believe in Creation, Adam and Eve, the flood, Moses and they believe the
> Jesus was a Prophet that never died. They believe Mohammad to have been
> the final prophet. Women are considered to have half the brainpower of a
> man.

Actually, the commandment properly translated (so I understand) is "Thou 
shalt not murder."  Killing in God's name is permissible (and 
encouraged), and there are other circumstances where people are commanded 
to kill (stoning, but just not quite to death? No, stonings are supposed 
to end up with someone dead - an adulterer, for example).

Jim

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Fractracer <lg.### [at] gmailcom> wrote:
> Maybe I am wrong, but, of the three religions based on the Bible (Jewish,
> Christian, Muslim), only the Christian's book don't justify or allow the murder.

Death penalty by stoning is decreed in the Bible. (And no, Jesus did not
repeal that. And no, I'm not in the mood to start a biblical debate on
the subject.)

There's also quite a clear command to kill witches (which likewise is
not repealed anywhere.) This particular passage has been used countless
times to kill people, even nowadays.

Most Christians let secular morality and concepts of human rights trump
those commandments, which is a good thing. Unfortunately not all of them.

-- 
                                                          - Warp

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On 12/23/2013 1:09 PM, Lars R. wrote:
>>> But nearly no-one ask: Why do young men get so despaired in their
>>> lives, that they bomb themselves away? Why are they so disappointed
>>> about our world, about their future in this world that they hope
>>> for salvation in a promised heaven?
>>
>> This is something I've never figured out.
>>
>> It's apparently no secret that the Muslims want us dead. But I
>> haven't got the vaguest idea *why*.
>
> Okay, you already oversimplicate it. :-(
>
> It has nothing to do with Islam. Religion is just a vehicle to carry an
> oversimplied message. Why simplified? So it can be understood by people
> without education.
>
> As always: It is much easier to blame other people for own misery. That
> principle works exactly the same "here" (in Western Europe and Nothern
> America) and "there" (the Eastern Hemisphere, the Muslim world etc.)
>
> The only way to overcome such thinking is: education and enlightenment.
> But instead of investing in schools and universities we "invest" in
> armament and support apologists of stupidity, not only in Muslim
> countries, also in our own ones. :-(

A lot of us would love to bring education and enlightenment to these 
other places, but their governments actively frustrate this goal. 
Things that in the West are regarded as shameful balderdash, credited 
only by the most philosophically impoverished, are presented as 
unvarnished truth by the state-run media.

Regards,
John

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On Tue, 31 Dec 2013 23:27:08 -0600, John VanSickle wrote:

> A lot of us would love to bring education and enlightenment to these
> other places, but their governments actively frustrate this goal.

Indeed, education is anathema to power in many places, ignorance keeps 
people from asking too many uncomfortable questions.

We're starting to see that in the US.  OK, it's not just starting now, 
it's been a long road to get a lot of people in this country to become 
ignorant (and thus to vote against their own interests).

Jim

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