> Seriously, if I did an Internet search and blindly applied for every
> single job that turned up [which is probably a bad idea], that would
> still only take, like, an hour or so. What are the other 7 for?

???

I think it took about an hour *per job* when I was applying - you can't 
tailor your CV and cover letter for an application within 5 minutes, you 
also should be spending some time researching the company you are 
applying for.

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On 20/09/2012 08:22 AM, scott wrote:
> I think it took about an hour *per job* when I was applying - you can't
> tailor your CV and cover letter for an application within 5 minutes, you
> also should be spending some time researching the company you are
> applying for.

Well, there's two schools of thought here.

You can spend weeks researching the company, analysing the job spec, 
trying to distil what they're looking for, and finely crafting your CV 
to match, and only then applying.

Or you can write the best CV you can, and just send it to as many people 
as possible.

Currently I'm going with the latter approach. Most of the jobs I'm 
applying for I probably don't stand a hope in hell of getting anyway, so 
it seems wasteful to expend huge amounts of energy on something which is 
probably futile.

I do make exceptions, of course. When I applied to Google, I spent weeks 
customising my CV. (Then again, it's Google, the industry's best 
employer.) But for the most part, I just send out lots of applications. 
So far it's got me to two interviews, equalling my previous lifetime 
best. And it's only been a few weeks...

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> See, that's the thing - knowing somebody doesn't actually get you hired.
> I suppose it might plausibly let you hear about a job you wouldn't
> otherwise hear about... but if you're doing daily Internet searches,
> you're going to find this stuff anyway. (Or it's not advertised, in
> which case you can't apply for it.) Again, it's not like insider
> knowledge actually gets you any nearer to your goal.

The last 3 people who started in my office had no formal interview and 
there certainly weren't any adverts anywhere, they were just known by 
others in the office from previous jobs.

My girlfriend got her job by knowing a manager, she still had to send in 
an application form but it was a formality, they didn't even bother 
looking at the other applications, even though surely there would have 
been people better qualified and with more experience.

I'm sure others here have similar experiences, it's quite common. And 
even if you can't bypass the official application/interview procedure, 
you can get the name/email of the best person to send your CV to, the 
right things to say, get someone to put in a good word for you etc. It's 
not what you know it's who you know :-)

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> Well, there's two schools of thought here.
>
> You can spend weeks researching the company, analysing the job spec,
> trying to distil what they're looking for, and finely crafting your CV
> to match, and only then applying.
>
> Or you can write the best CV you can, and just send it to as many people
> as possible.

Really, both of those extremes are a very bad idea.

If you have 8 hours a day then scheduling 1 hour for customising your CV 
and researching the company sounds about right. That way you should get 
out 8 high quality applications each day.

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On 20/09/2012 09:11 AM, scott wrote:
> It's not what you know it's who you know :-)

On the one hand, I've only ever had one job - and that's because my dad 
worked there.

On the other hand, I know people who work at the OU, and yet I can't get 
a job at the OU. I know somebody who works for Network Rail, and yet I 
can't get a job at Network Rail. Hell, I know a guy who works at Google, 
and I can't get them to hire me either. (Although, amazingly, I did get 
an interview...)

You see what I'm saying? Just knowing somebody who works at company X 
doesn't seem to help you actually get in there. (Unless the company is 
the kind of hopelessly unprofessional place like where I left just...)

In short, I know a tiny handful of people, but I'm not sure how to /use/ 
that to get hired.

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On 20/09/2012 09:15 AM, scott wrote:
> If you have 8 hours a day then scheduling 1 hour for customising your CV
> and researching the company sounds about right. That way you should get
> out 8 high quality applications each day.

Well, if you're going to spend an entire hour on each application, you 
need to be /very/ picky about which jobs you bother applying to. (And to 
think everybody keeps telling me I'm /already/ being too picky...)

Also, like I said, at the point where you apply, you usually have /no 
idea/ who the company is. You just know who the recruitment agency is. 
It's kind of hard to research a company when you don't know who they are.

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> Well, if you're going to spend an entire hour on each application, you
> need to be /very/ picky about which jobs you bother applying to. (And to
> think everybody keeps telling me I'm /already/ being too picky...)

I don't think anyone would advise you to apply for more than 8 jobs per 
day. That's 40 a week.

> Also, like I said, at the point where you apply, you usually have /no
> idea/ who the company is. You just know who the recruitment agency is.
> It's kind of hard to research a company when you don't know who they are.

You call the recruitment agency and ask then.

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Le 2012-09-20 04:15, Orchid Win7 v1 a écrit :
> On 20/09/2012 09:11 AM, scott wrote:
>> It's not what you know it's who you know :-)
>
> On the one hand, I've only ever had one job - and that's because my dad
> worked there.
>

Proof that networking works!  You got your first job because of your 
connections.

> On the other hand, I know people who work at the OU, and yet I can't get
> a job at the OU. I know somebody who works for Network Rail, and yet I
> can't get a job at Network Rail. Hell, I know a guy who works at Google,
> and I can't get them to hire me either. (Although, amazingly, I did get
> an interview...)
>
> You see what I'm saying? Just knowing somebody who works at company X
> doesn't seem to help you actually get in there. (Unless the company is
> the kind of hopelessly unprofessional place like where I left just...)
>

You rarely win the lotto with your first ticket.

> In short, I know a tiny handful of people, but I'm not sure how to /use/
> that to get hired.

As I've said before... you take dance classes.  Ask the people in your 
class if they have openings at their workplace.  Even if they're 
marketing assistants or dentists, they may know that their IT dept. is 
looking for people.

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/*   gmail.com     */}camera{orthographic location<6,1.25,-6>look_at a }

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On Wed, 19 Sep 2012 19:34:38 +0100, Stephen wrote:

> On 19/09/2012 6:38 PM, Jim Henderson wrote:
>> You do have control over how many interviews you get invited to - if
>> you get 'x' interviews for 'y' CVs sent out, you have some degree of
>> control of how many interviews you may get.
>>
>>
> I would not say that it is a linear relationship though.

True, it is more complex than that.  Hence the next statement:

>> Conversely, if you send out no CVs, you get no interviews.  That's also
>> in your control.
> 
> That is very true.

:)

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On Wed, 19 Sep 2012 19:33:20 +0100, Stephen wrote:

> On 19/09/2012 4:51 PM, Jim Henderson wrote:
>> The money is very good (but it's all pre-tax, so here in the US, we
>> have to submit a quarterly estimate and pay our taxes with that
>> estimate).
> 
> In the UK you can start your own company as a sole trader. That way you
> can get tax breaks. (I won’t say what but it is all legal above board
> and not offshore.) And I just found out last week from my accountant
> that there is a tax scheme where you can pay a flat rate of VAT (sales
> tax). So if your turnover is less than GBP 150000 you charge 20% to the
> client or agency and pay back 14.5% to the Inland Revenue and you don’t
> have to do much paperwork. :-)

Yeah, you can do stuff like that here in the US.  I haven't yet because I 
hadn't expected to be doing contract work for so long.

Once I know what's happening after this gig, I'll decide whether I'm 
setting up a sole proprietorship or something similar myself.

Jim

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