On 10/15/2011 5:39, Warp wrote:
>    1) Many critics of the "occupy Wall Street" movement accuse the protesters
> of opposing capitalism.

America has gotten sucked into (or dove into) several wars with countries 
that were titularly not capitalist. If someone says something isn't 
capitalist, they're simply trying to appeal to the emotions of the listeners 
without actually making rational arguments.

As you have pointed out, the people who classify stuff so simplistically 
aren't rational anyway, so it's what you hear on the news.

We also have people complaining that Obama has the wrong kind of birth 
certificate and stupid shit like that. They're also very loud and irrational.

>    I don't understand this accusation at all.

Because you're thinking it's part of a rational, logical argument, rather 
than the financial equivalent of screaming "you're not patriotic!!1!"

>    2) If you do a bit of searching, you will find tons of conspiracy theories
> about how the FDA is shutting down, hiding and attacking alternative cures
> for all kinds of diseases.

Again, people who fall for this are the same people who aren't too bright. 
They also think there's a car engine that runs on water that the oil 
companies are buying the patents to and hiding, not even realizing that if 
it's patented it's already public knowledge.

You're hearing loud stupid people that only other loud stupid people take 
seriously.  And yes, most of our loud stupid people are very parochial, 
because travel tends to make you less stupid.

>    These people seem to be completely oblivious to the fact that there
> are many countries where Christianity is not predominant.

But those countries are also evil! :-)

>    Yet these countries have not fallen into chaos and anarchy, their societies
> crumbling under the lack of morality, order and law.

Sure they are. They have all that awful legalized prostitution and drugs, 
and anyway God hates them, and that's good enough. ;-)

 > In fact, there are
> statistically *less* crime in most European countries than there is in
> the US (regardless of the type of crime).

And we have far fewer atheists in jail than christians, even per capita. 
You're using logic to try to debunk religion. :-)

> Yet these American Christians
> seem either completely unaware of this, don't want to think about it,
> or actively ignore or deny it.

Yes. It would challenge their world view, which can't really afford to be 
challenged.

-- 
Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
   How come I never get only one kudo?

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On 15/10/2011 5:40 PM, Darren New wrote:
> Because you're thinking it's part of a rational, logical argument,
> rather than the financial equivalent of screaming "you're not
> patriotic!!1!"
>

That reminds me. I was travelling home from the States at the beginning 
of July. One of our security guards said, “At least you will get to 
spend the holiday at home.” I had to remind him that we don’t actually 
celebrate America’s Independence Day in Britain,


>
> Again, people who fall for this are the same people who aren't too
> bright. They also think there's a car engine that runs on water that the
> oil companies are buying the patents to and hiding, not even realizing
> that if it's patented it's already public knowledge.

There is/was a car engine that runs on water. The principle was that 
water was sprayed into the cylinder just after the spark to increase the 
efficiency of the combustion force. Why it was not developed I can’t 
say. (Where is Scott when you need him?)

-- 
Regards
     Stephen

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On 15/10/2011 05:54 PM, Stephen wrote:

> I had to remind him that we don’t actually
> celebrate America’s Independence Day in Britain,

Strange, that...

> There is/was a car engine that runs on water. The principle was that
> water was sprayed into the cylinder just after the spark to increase the
> efficiency of the combustion force.

That's not a car "running on water", any more than a normal car that 
uses water to reduce engine temperature is "running on water".

> Why it was not developed I can’t say. (Where is Scott when you need him?)

Scotty: I cannae doit, captin! I just DON'T... HAVE... the POWER!

-- 
http://blog.orphi.me.uk/
http://www.zazzle.com/MathematicalOrchid*

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On 15/10/2011 05:40 PM, Darren New wrote:

> We also have people complaining that Obama has the wrong kind of birth
> certificate and stupid shit like that. They're also very loud and
> irrational.

"My dad was in the army for a time. He nearly ended up being president 
of America! He was the unit's undertaker; they used to call him the 
barrack embalmer." *rimshot*

-- 
http://blog.orphi.me.uk/
http://www.zazzle.com/MathematicalOrchid*

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On 15-10-2011 17:13, Orchid XP v8 wrote:
> On 15/10/2011 01:39 PM, Warp wrote:
>> I get the strong
>> impression that many Americans seem to live in some kind of social bubble
>> where they subconsciously think that they are the only people in the
>> world
>> (or at least the only people with a modern western culture and society).
>> In other words, they have an extremely US-centric view of the world.
>
> In fairness, the USA is larger than all of Europe put together. If you
> imagine each US state as being like an EU country, there's no /that/
> much difference. How many Europeans are really aware of anything
> happening outside Europe (and the USA)? Let's face it, there's Africa,
> Asia, Australia, *South* America, and those are just the places that I
> actually know the names of. Nobody talks about those much... and they're
> not exactly small or insignificant.

I have been in South America and in Africa this year, next year I will 
be in Asia and in general I am following as much as I can what happens 
there and pretty much everywhere. Both politically and with respect to 
health care. So what is your point?
Probably that I am a white raven.
I don't think so.


-- 
Apparently you can afford your own dictator for less than 10 cents per 
citizen per day.

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On 15-10-2011 18:40, Darren New wrote:

> Sure they are. They have all that awful legalized prostitution and
> drugs, and anyway God hates them, and that's good enough. ;-)

So that is why we had to build our country by ourselves? God didn't 
*want* to.


-- 
Apparently you can afford your own dictator for less than 10 cents per 
citizen per day.

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On 15/10/2011 8:48 PM, andrel wrote:
> On 15-10-2011 18:40, Darren New wrote:
>
>> Sure they are. They have all that awful legalized prostitution and
>> drugs, and anyway God hates them, and that's good enough. ;-)
>
> So that is why we had to build our country by ourselves? God didn't
> *want* to.
>

Lucky you. Look at the mess *He/She/It* made of everywhere else. ;-)
And although Darren was being ironic. I must say that I think that you 
Lowlanders have got it right. No wars that you can't win. ;-)

-- 
Regards
     Stephen

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On 15/10/2011 7:16 PM, Orchid XP v8 wrote:
>
> That's not a car "running on water", any more than a normal car that
> uses water to reduce engine temperature is "running on water".

Have another thought then have another guess.

-- 
Regards
     Stephen

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On 10/15/2011 5:39 AM, Warp wrote:
>    Not living in the US, only seeing what's happening there from far away,
> my notion may very well be really biased and limited, but I get the strong
> impression that many Americans seem to live in some kind of social bubble
> where they subconsciously think that they are the only people in the world
> (or at least the only people with a modern western culture and society).
> In other words, they have an extremely US-centric view of the world.
>
I think the problem is more that certain "monied" people, a small number 
of Rupert Murdock like news agencies, and one entire political party (or 
at least the current leadership, and an unfortunate number of others 
that thought they sounded like a great idea), are literally unhinged, in 
several ways, not the least being a complete inability to accept, or 
acknowledge, that the US doesn't have all the answers, to every problem.

>    Three examples:
>
>
>    1) Many critics of the "occupy Wall Street" movement accuse the protesters
> of opposing capitalism.
>
>    I don't understand this accusation at all. It seems to imply that the only
> possible form of capitalism is the one which is enacted in the US, where
> the government is largely lobbied by large corporations, where these
> corporations (in large part thanks to this lobbying) can get away with
> screwing up people, where basically everything is privatized (including
> things like the healthcare system), where banks and other corporations whose
> only goal is to make money with money (and which do not produce anything)
> deliberately screwing up the economy by shady (and sometimes outright illegal)
> tactics and for their own benefit at the cost of others is normal, and where
> individuals have basically no rights over big corporations.
>
>    This kind of mentality completely ignores the fact that the US is not the
> only capitalist country in the world. It might be unique in its particular
> form of capitalism, but it's certainly not the only capitalist country.
> Most other western countries have a form of capitalism that is much more
> controlled by the government, where large corporations are not free to do
> whatever they want, and it works just ok.
>
>    I get the feeling that these people seem to think, at some level, that
> the US is the only "true" capitalist country in the world, and the rest is
> just socialist countries or banana republics, and that eroding anything in
> the current US capitalist system is going towards socialism and communism.
>
>
The majority of actual people are a) part of this movement, or b) 
sympathetic of it, its purely the idiots in "some" of the news, and the 
party they shill for, which think this way.

>    2) If you do a bit of searching, you will find tons of conspiracy theories
> about how the FDA is shutting down, hiding and attacking alternative cures
> for all kinds of diseases. Miracle cures for cancer seem to be the most
> popular ones. You can find lengthy "documentaries" about this very subject.
>
>    These conspiracy theories are *so* US-centric that it gives me nausea.
> Apparently to these people the FDA either controls the entire world, or
> alternatively the US is the only country in the world where any kind of
> medical research is performed (under the tight grip of the FDA, of course).
>
>    I don't remember any of these conspiracy theories trying to explain how
> it's possible that there exists a miracle cure for cancer (or whatever),
> yet no other country has started using it. Countries that have absolutely
> nothing to do with the US and the FDA.
>
Yeah, we have a fine tradition of this kind of nutso BS in the US. As 
someone put it, "when your kooks are on the sideline, and 'sometimes' 
figure out a good idea, by accident, its beneficial to the country. 
However, when your kooks end up center stage, get their own TV shows, or 
run for congress, you have a problem." The first "celebrity" kook was 
the Atlantis guy, only he started out backwards, we *was* in congress 
(or maybe the senate, I don't remember at the moment), and is one of the 
only people ever thrown out, after he went off and ranted, quite 
insanely, against his own friend, apparently, during a session, in front 
of everyone. He then made a fairly unexciting career as a failed 
politician, and crank, before cobbling together a load of complete 
nonsense, based on a few lines in a Greek poem. Now, you can't, 
literally, find one single reference too, nut case looking for, or claim 
about, the lost city of Atlantis, which isn't **directly** tied to his 
original, idiotic, book. Being that, before him, no one even dared 
suggest that there *was* something to look for, this is hardly surprising.

But, now we do it backwards here in the US. We let someone spend years 
as a complete nutcase, then give him fame, then, if they don't seriously 
screw up, elect them.
>
>    3) Many Christians in the US (at least in some parts of it) have
> this conviction that atheism leads to complete immorality, anarchy,
> every-man-for-himself attitudes, violence, crime and complete chaos.
> This is one of the reasons why they vilify and discriminate against
> atheists so strongly (way more than believers in other religions). They
> are seen as absolutely immoral monsters and beasts who would immediately
> go in a violent crime rampage if it were not for all the Christians keeping
> law and order.
>
>    These people seem to be completely oblivious to the fact that there
> are many countries where Christianity is not predominant. Moreover, there
> are countries where *no* religion is predominant. For example in the northern
> European countries something like 85% of people are secular, many of them
> outspoken atheists. Similar numbers are true for most of Europe. While in
> the US the atheist is the odd-man-out, the exception to the rule, the
> reverse is true here.
>
>    Yet these countries have not fallen into chaos and anarchy, their societies
> crumbling under the lack of morality, order and law. In fact, there are
> statistically *less* crime in most European countries than there is in
> the US (regardless of the type of crime). Yet these American Christians
> seem either completely unaware of this, don't want to think about it,
> or actively ignore or deny it.
>

This is simple. The logic is that a) they are going to hell, just look 
at how much "worse" their economies are, b) just look at all these ( 
entirely made up) examples of bad laws, and evil things happening in 
them, c) denial that anything good is happening in those places, and d) 
an even **bigger** total, and complete, denial that Christians are not 
the majority religion in the world, or that any place with a lot of 
churches can "possibly" be non-religious.

Between the denialism, the outright lies, and the practical total 
disinterest in the US media to show, admit to, or mention, except in a 
negative context, any "secularism" any place else, its hardly a surprise 
that the majority of the population imagines Europe as a vast empire of 
Christian idealism, with a few horrible, probably socialist, imperial, 
left wing, fascist, atheist, communists, running around trying to 
destroy it. And, well.. If that isn't the case, then, just look how much 
"better" the news tells us we are, compared to everyone else, so we damn 
well better not try any of that anti-corporatism, anti-religious, 
socialist, bullshit here. It might, cause a recession, or something!

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On 10/15/2011 9:40 AM, Darren New wrote:
> We also have people complaining that Obama has the wrong kind of birth
> certificate and stupid shit like that. They're also very loud and
> irrational.
>
Strictly speaking, this isn't "quite" what the idiot complaint is. The 
argument was, initially, that he couldn't possibly be born in the US, 
and thus be president. What followed was the proclamation that Hawaii 
officials *must* have been bribed to create a fake "short form" 
certificate, because they refused to release the original (which is 
plausible, as least in terms of the short form being not a direct 
photocopy of the original, but completely stupid, in that you kind of 
have to "prove" that someone was bribed, or something like that...). 
Only later did some of the more serious nutcases argue that even the 
original long form had to be fake, because well, it was all a 
conspiracy, somehow, by his parents, to make him president, somehow, 
right from like, the day he was born, in someplace not the US, or like.. 
something.

Sadly, one of the idiots in Arizona, if you believe the tabloids (and 
sometimes they do, in cases like this, tell something resembling truth), 
is still wasting time, and government money, on "proving it a fake!"

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