Not living in the US, only seeing what's happening there from far away,
my notion may very well be really biased and limited, but I get the strong
impression that many Americans seem to live in some kind of social bubble
where they subconsciously think that they are the only people in the world
(or at least the only people with a modern western culture and society).
In other words, they have an extremely US-centric view of the world.

  Three examples:


  1) Many critics of the "occupy Wall Street" movement accuse the protesters
of opposing capitalism.

  I don't understand this accusation at all. It seems to imply that the only
possible form of capitalism is the one which is enacted in the US, where
the government is largely lobbied by large corporations, where these
corporations (in large part thanks to this lobbying) can get away with
screwing up people, where basically everything is privatized (including
things like the healthcare system), where banks and other corporations whose
only goal is to make money with money (and which do not produce anything)
deliberately screwing up the economy by shady (and sometimes outright illegal)
tactics and for their own benefit at the cost of others is normal, and where
individuals have basically no rights over big corporations.

  This kind of mentality completely ignores the fact that the US is not the
only capitalist country in the world. It might be unique in its particular
form of capitalism, but it's certainly not the only capitalist country.
Most other western countries have a form of capitalism that is much more
controlled by the government, where large corporations are not free to do
whatever they want, and it works just ok.

  I get the feeling that these people seem to think, at some level, that
the US is the only "true" capitalist country in the world, and the rest is
just socialist countries or banana republics, and that eroding anything in
the current US capitalist system is going towards socialism and communism.


  2) If you do a bit of searching, you will find tons of conspiracy theories
about how the FDA is shutting down, hiding and attacking alternative cures
for all kinds of diseases. Miracle cures for cancer seem to be the most
popular ones. You can find lengthy "documentaries" about this very subject.

  These conspiracy theories are *so* US-centric that it gives me nausea.
Apparently to these people the FDA either controls the entire world, or
alternatively the US is the only country in the world where any kind of
medical research is performed (under the tight grip of the FDA, of course).

  I don't remember any of these conspiracy theories trying to explain how
it's possible that there exists a miracle cure for cancer (or whatever),
yet no other country has started using it. Countries that have absolutely
nothing to do with the US and the FDA.


  3) Many Christians in the US (at least in some parts of it) have
this conviction that atheism leads to complete immorality, anarchy,
every-man-for-himself attitudes, violence, crime and complete chaos.
This is one of the reasons why they vilify and discriminate against
atheists so strongly (way more than believers in other religions). They
are seen as absolutely immoral monsters and beasts who would immediately
go in a violent crime rampage if it were not for all the Christians keeping
law and order.

  These people seem to be completely oblivious to the fact that there
are many countries where Christianity is not predominant. Moreover, there
are countries where *no* religion is predominant. For example in the northern
European countries something like 85% of people are secular, many of them
outspoken atheists. Similar numbers are true for most of Europe. While in
the US the atheist is the odd-man-out, the exception to the rule, the
reverse is true here.

  Yet these countries have not fallen into chaos and anarchy, their societies
crumbling under the lack of morality, order and law. In fact, there are
statistically *less* crime in most European countries than there is in
the US (regardless of the type of crime). Yet these American Christians
seem either completely unaware of this, don't want to think about it,
or actively ignore or deny it.

-- 
                                                          - Warp

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On 15/10/2011 01:39 PM, Warp wrote:
> I get the strong
> impression that many Americans seem to live in some kind of social bubble
> where they subconsciously think that they are the only people in the world
> (or at least the only people with a modern western culture and society).
> In other words, they have an extremely US-centric view of the world.

In fairness, the USA is larger than all of Europe put together. If you 
imagine each US state as being like an EU country, there's no /that/ 
much difference. How many Europeans are really aware of anything 
happening outside Europe (and the USA)? Let's face it, there's Africa, 
Asia, Australia, *South* America, and those are just the places that I 
actually know the names of. Nobody talks about those much... and they're 
not exactly small or insignificant.

What I /have/ noticed about the USA is that they tend to assert that 
their way of life is the only /correct/ one. Like, the way they live is 
the best way, and the rest of the world just hasn't learned how to be as 
awesome as them yet. Whereas in Europe, each country has roughly similar 
laws and so forth, but there are several areas of fairly drastic 
difference. And then there's culture and so forth. And overall, nobody 
seems to be sitting there saying "we're the best in Europe, and we pitty 
all those other countries who haven't learned how to be like us yet".

Also: The USA is huge. I can't help feeling that somewhere within it, 
there must be some intelligent people. And those people must feel really 
embarrassed that they live in the same country as the morons who make 
America look so bad to the rest of the world with depressing frequency...

(I remember when the London riots where happening. And then they started 
happening all over the country. I felt ashemed to be British that day.)

-- 
http://blog.orphi.me.uk/
http://www.zazzle.com/MathematicalOrchid*

Post a reply to this message

On 15/10/2011 4:13 PM, Orchid XP v8 wrote:
> Also: The USA is huge. I can't help feeling that somewhere within it,
> there must be some intelligent people. And those people must feel really
> embarrassed that they live in the same country as the morons who make
> America look so bad to the rest of the world with depressing frequency...

You are right. It is the big mouthed ones who get the attention. Lots of 
Americans do not live up to the stereotype that the news and Hollywood 
portray. It is true though, they have their fair share of weirdos.

-- 
Regards
     Stephen

Post a reply to this message

On 15/10/2011 04:26 PM, Stephen wrote:
> On 15/10/2011 4:13 PM, Orchid XP v8 wrote:
>> Also: The USA is huge. I can't help feeling that somewhere within it,
>> there must be some intelligent people. And those people must feel really
>> embarrassed that they live in the same country as the morons who make
>> America look so bad to the rest of the world with depressing frequency...
>
> You are right. It is the big mouthed ones who get the attention. Lots of
> Americans do not live up to the stereotype that the news and Hollywood
> portray. It is true though, they have their fair share of weirdos.

Every country has stupid and/or weird people in it. The USA seems to be 
special in that it has particularly visible ones.

-- 
http://blog.orphi.me.uk/
http://www.zazzle.com/MathematicalOrchid*

Post a reply to this message

On 10/15/2011 5:39, Warp wrote:
>    1) Many critics of the "occupy Wall Street" movement accuse the protesters
> of opposing capitalism.

America has gotten sucked into (or dove into) several wars with countries 
that were titularly not capitalist. If someone says something isn't 
capitalist, they're simply trying to appeal to the emotions of the listeners 
without actually making rational arguments.

As you have pointed out, the people who classify stuff so simplistically 
aren't rational anyway, so it's what you hear on the news.

We also have people complaining that Obama has the wrong kind of birth 
certificate and stupid shit like that. They're also very loud and irrational.

>    I don't understand this accusation at all.

Because you're thinking it's part of a rational, logical argument, rather 
than the financial equivalent of screaming "you're not patriotic!!1!"

>    2) If you do a bit of searching, you will find tons of conspiracy theories
> about how the FDA is shutting down, hiding and attacking alternative cures
> for all kinds of diseases.

Again, people who fall for this are the same people who aren't too bright. 
They also think there's a car engine that runs on water that the oil 
companies are buying the patents to and hiding, not even realizing that if 
it's patented it's already public knowledge.

You're hearing loud stupid people that only other loud stupid people take 
seriously.  And yes, most of our loud stupid people are very parochial, 
because travel tends to make you less stupid.

>    These people seem to be completely oblivious to the fact that there
> are many countries where Christianity is not predominant.

But those countries are also evil! :-)

>    Yet these countries have not fallen into chaos and anarchy, their societies
> crumbling under the lack of morality, order and law.

Sure they are. They have all that awful legalized prostitution and drugs, 
and anyway God hates them, and that's good enough. ;-)

 > In fact, there are
> statistically *less* crime in most European countries than there is in
> the US (regardless of the type of crime).

And we have far fewer atheists in jail than christians, even per capita. 
You're using logic to try to debunk religion. :-)

> Yet these American Christians
> seem either completely unaware of this, don't want to think about it,
> or actively ignore or deny it.

Yes. It would challenge their world view, which can't really afford to be 
challenged.

-- 
Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
   How come I never get only one kudo?

Post a reply to this message

On 15/10/2011 5:40 PM, Darren New wrote:
> Because you're thinking it's part of a rational, logical argument,
> rather than the financial equivalent of screaming "you're not
> patriotic!!1!"
>

That reminds me. I was travelling home from the States at the beginning 
of July. One of our security guards said, “At least you will get to 
spend the holiday at home.” I had to remind him that we don’t actually 
celebrate America’s Independence Day in Britain,


>
> Again, people who fall for this are the same people who aren't too
> bright. They also think there's a car engine that runs on water that the
> oil companies are buying the patents to and hiding, not even realizing
> that if it's patented it's already public knowledge.

There is/was a car engine that runs on water. The principle was that 
water was sprayed into the cylinder just after the spark to increase the 
efficiency of the combustion force. Why it was not developed I can’t 
say. (Where is Scott when you need him?)

-- 
Regards
     Stephen

Post a reply to this message

On 15/10/2011 05:54 PM, Stephen wrote:

> I had to remind him that we don’t actually
> celebrate America’s Independence Day in Britain,

Strange, that...

> There is/was a car engine that runs on water. The principle was that
> water was sprayed into the cylinder just after the spark to increase the
> efficiency of the combustion force.

That's not a car "running on water", any more than a normal car that 
uses water to reduce engine temperature is "running on water".

> Why it was not developed I can’t say. (Where is Scott when you need him?)

Scotty: I cannae doit, captin! I just DON'T... HAVE... the POWER!

-- 
http://blog.orphi.me.uk/
http://www.zazzle.com/MathematicalOrchid*

Post a reply to this message

On 15/10/2011 05:40 PM, Darren New wrote:

> We also have people complaining that Obama has the wrong kind of birth
> certificate and stupid shit like that. They're also very loud and
> irrational.

"My dad was in the army for a time. He nearly ended up being president 
of America! He was the unit's undertaker; they used to call him the 
barrack embalmer." *rimshot*

-- 
http://blog.orphi.me.uk/
http://www.zazzle.com/MathematicalOrchid*

Post a reply to this message

On 15-10-2011 17:13, Orchid XP v8 wrote:
> On 15/10/2011 01:39 PM, Warp wrote:
>> I get the strong
>> impression that many Americans seem to live in some kind of social bubble
>> where they subconsciously think that they are the only people in the
>> world
>> (or at least the only people with a modern western culture and society).
>> In other words, they have an extremely US-centric view of the world.
>
> In fairness, the USA is larger than all of Europe put together. If you
> imagine each US state as being like an EU country, there's no /that/
> much difference. How many Europeans are really aware of anything
> happening outside Europe (and the USA)? Let's face it, there's Africa,
> Asia, Australia, *South* America, and those are just the places that I
> actually know the names of. Nobody talks about those much... and they're
> not exactly small or insignificant.

I have been in South America and in Africa this year, next year I will 
be in Asia and in general I am following as much as I can what happens 
there and pretty much everywhere. Both politically and with respect to 
health care. So what is your point?
Probably that I am a white raven.
I don't think so.


-- 
Apparently you can afford your own dictator for less than 10 cents per 
citizen per day.

Post a reply to this message

On 15-10-2011 18:40, Darren New wrote:

> Sure they are. They have all that awful legalized prostitution and
> drugs, and anyway God hates them, and that's good enough. ;-)

So that is why we had to build our country by ourselves? God didn't 
*want* to.


-- 
Apparently you can afford your own dictator for less than 10 cents per 
citizen per day.

Post a reply to this message

On 15/10/2011 8:48 PM, andrel wrote:
> On 15-10-2011 18:40, Darren New wrote:
>
>> Sure they are. They have all that awful legalized prostitution and
>> drugs, and anyway God hates them, and that's good enough. ;-)
>
> So that is why we had to build our country by ourselves? God didn't
> *want* to.
>

Lucky you. Look at the mess *He/She/It* made of everywhere else. ;-)
And although Darren was being ironic. I must say that I think that you 
Lowlanders have got it right. No wars that you can't win. ;-)

-- 
Regards
     Stephen

Post a reply to this message

On 15/10/2011 7:16 PM, Orchid XP v8 wrote:
>
> That's not a car "running on water", any more than a normal car that
> uses water to reduce engine temperature is "running on water".

Have another thought then have another guess.

-- 
Regards
     Stephen

Post a reply to this message

On 10/15/2011 5:39 AM, Warp wrote:
>    Not living in the US, only seeing what's happening there from far away,
> my notion may very well be really biased and limited, but I get the strong
> impression that many Americans seem to live in some kind of social bubble
> where they subconsciously think that they are the only people in the world
> (or at least the only people with a modern western culture and society).
> In other words, they have an extremely US-centric view of the world.
>
I think the problem is more that certain "monied" people, a small number 
of Rupert Murdock like news agencies, and one entire political party (or 
at least the current leadership, and an unfortunate number of others 
that thought they sounded like a great idea), are literally unhinged, in 
several ways, not the least being a complete inability to accept, or 
acknowledge, that the US doesn't have all the answers, to every problem.

>    Three examples:
>
>
>    1) Many critics of the "occupy Wall Street" movement accuse the protesters
> of opposing capitalism.
>
>    I don't understand this accusation at all. It seems to imply that the only
> possible form of capitalism is the one which is enacted in the US, where
> the government is largely lobbied by large corporations, where these
> corporations (in large part thanks to this lobbying) can get away with
> screwing up people, where basically everything is privatized (including
> things like the healthcare system), where banks and other corporations whose
> only goal is to make money with money (and which do not produce anything)
> deliberately screwing up the economy by shady (and sometimes outright illegal)
> tactics and for their own benefit at the cost of others is normal, and where
> individuals have basically no rights over big corporations.
>
>    This kind of mentality completely ignores the fact that the US is not the
> only capitalist country in the world. It might be unique in its particular
> form of capitalism, but it's certainly not the only capitalist country.
> Most other western countries have a form of capitalism that is much more
> controlled by the government, where large corporations are not free to do
> whatever they want, and it works just ok.
>
>    I get the feeling that these people seem to think, at some level, that
> the US is the only "true" capitalist country in the world, and the rest is
> just socialist countries or banana republics, and that eroding anything in
> the current US capitalist system is going towards socialism and communism.
>
>
The majority of actual people are a) part of this movement, or b) 
sympathetic of it, its purely the idiots in "some" of the news, and the 
party they shill for, which think this way.

>    2) If you do a bit of searching, you will find tons of conspiracy theories
> about how the FDA is shutting down, hiding and attacking alternative cures
> for all kinds of diseases. Miracle cures for cancer seem to be the most
> popular ones. You can find lengthy "documentaries" about this very subject.
>
>    These conspiracy theories are *so* US-centric that it gives me nausea.
> Apparently to these people the FDA either controls the entire world, or
> alternatively the US is the only country in the world where any kind of
> medical research is performed (under the tight grip of the FDA, of course).
>
>    I don't remember any of these conspiracy theories trying to explain how
> it's possible that there exists a miracle cure for cancer (or whatever),
> yet no other country has started using it. Countries that have absolutely
> nothing to do with the US and the FDA.
>
Yeah, we have a fine tradition of this kind of nutso BS in the US. As 
someone put it, "when your kooks are on the sideline, and 'sometimes' 
figure out a good idea, by accident, its beneficial to the country. 
However, when your kooks end up center stage, get their own TV shows, or 
run for congress, you have a problem." The first "celebrity" kook was 
the Atlantis guy, only he started out backwards, we *was* in congress 
(or maybe the senate, I don't remember at the moment), and is one of the 
only people ever thrown out, after he went off and ranted, quite 
insanely, against his own friend, apparently, during a session, in front 
of everyone. He then made a fairly unexciting career as a failed 
politician, and crank, before cobbling together a load of complete 
nonsense, based on a few lines in a Greek poem. Now, you can't, 
literally, find one single reference too, nut case looking for, or claim 
about, the lost city of Atlantis, which isn't **directly** tied to his 
original, idiotic, book. Being that, before him, no one even dared 
suggest that there *was* something to look for, this is hardly surprising.

But, now we do it backwards here in the US. We let someone spend years 
as a complete nutcase, then give him fame, then, if they don't seriously 
screw up, elect them.
>
>    3) Many Christians in the US (at least in some parts of it) have
> this conviction that atheism leads to complete immorality, anarchy,
> every-man-for-himself attitudes, violence, crime and complete chaos.
> This is one of the reasons why they vilify and discriminate against
> atheists so strongly (way more than believers in other religions). They
> are seen as absolutely immoral monsters and beasts who would immediately
> go in a violent crime rampage if it were not for all the Christians keeping
> law and order.
>
>    These people seem to be completely oblivious to the fact that there
> are many countries where Christianity is not predominant. Moreover, there
> are countries where *no* religion is predominant. For example in the northern
> European countries something like 85% of people are secular, many of them
> outspoken atheists. Similar numbers are true for most of Europe. While in
> the US the atheist is the odd-man-out, the exception to the rule, the
> reverse is true here.
>
>    Yet these countries have not fallen into chaos and anarchy, their societies
> crumbling under the lack of morality, order and law. In fact, there are
> statistically *less* crime in most European countries than there is in
> the US (regardless of the type of crime). Yet these American Christians
> seem either completely unaware of this, don't want to think about it,
> or actively ignore or deny it.
>

This is simple. The logic is that a) they are going to hell, just look 
at how much "worse" their economies are, b) just look at all these ( 
entirely made up) examples of bad laws, and evil things happening in 
them, c) denial that anything good is happening in those places, and d) 
an even **bigger** total, and complete, denial that Christians are not 
the majority religion in the world, or that any place with a lot of 
churches can "possibly" be non-religious.

Between the denialism, the outright lies, and the practical total 
disinterest in the US media to show, admit to, or mention, except in a 
negative context, any "secularism" any place else, its hardly a surprise 
that the majority of the population imagines Europe as a vast empire of 
Christian idealism, with a few horrible, probably socialist, imperial, 
left wing, fascist, atheist, communists, running around trying to 
destroy it. And, well.. If that isn't the case, then, just look how much 
"better" the news tells us we are, compared to everyone else, so we damn 
well better not try any of that anti-corporatism, anti-religious, 
socialist, bullshit here. It might, cause a recession, or something!

Post a reply to this message

On 10/15/2011 9:40 AM, Darren New wrote:
> We also have people complaining that Obama has the wrong kind of birth
> certificate and stupid shit like that. They're also very loud and
> irrational.
>
Strictly speaking, this isn't "quite" what the idiot complaint is. The 
argument was, initially, that he couldn't possibly be born in the US, 
and thus be president. What followed was the proclamation that Hawaii 
officials *must* have been bribed to create a fake "short form" 
certificate, because they refused to release the original (which is 
plausible, as least in terms of the short form being not a direct 
photocopy of the original, but completely stupid, in that you kind of 
have to "prove" that someone was bribed, or something like that...). 
Only later did some of the more serious nutcases argue that even the 
original long form had to be fake, because well, it was all a 
conspiracy, somehow, by his parents, to make him president, somehow, 
right from like, the day he was born, in someplace not the US, or like.. 
something.

Sadly, one of the idiots in Arizona, if you believe the tabloids (and 
sometimes they do, in cases like this, tell something resembling truth), 
is still wasting time, and government money, on "proving it a fake!"

Post a reply to this message

On 10/15/2011 9:54 AM, Stephen wrote:
> On 15/10/2011 5:40 PM, Darren New wrote:
>> Because you're thinking it's part of a rational, logical argument,
>> rather than the financial equivalent of screaming "you're not
>> patriotic!!1!"
>>
>
> That reminds me. I was travelling home from the States at the beginning
> of July. One of our security guards said, “At least you will get to
> spend the holiday at home.” I had to remind him that we don’t actually
> celebrate America’s Independence Day in Britain,
>
>
>>
>> Again, people who fall for this are the same people who aren't too
>> bright. They also think there's a car engine that runs on water that the
>> oil companies are buying the patents to and hiding, not even realizing
>> that if it's patented it's already public knowledge.
>
> There is/was a car engine that runs on water. The principle was that
> water was sprayed into the cylinder just after the spark to increase the
> efficiency of the combustion force. Why it was not developed I can’t
> say. (Where is Scott when you need him?)
>
No no no. They bought off the guy that made it, then bribed the patent 
office, with the help of aliens, and the FDA, under the control of the 
Pentagon, to alter to patent, or substitute a different one, so no one 
could *ever* create one. Honest, my shoe told me so. Not my left one 
though, that one always lies!

lol

Post a reply to this message

Patrick Elliott <sel### [at] npgcablecom> wrote:
> This is simple. The logic is that a) they are going to hell, just look 
> at how much "worse" their economies are, b) just look at all these ( 
> entirely made up) examples of bad laws, and evil things happening in 
> them, c) denial that anything good is happening in those places, and d) 
> an even **bigger** total, and complete, denial that Christians are not 
> the majority religion in the world, or that any place with a lot of 
> churches can "possibly" be non-religious.

  The irony is that most European countries, including the nordic ones,
are technically speaking theocracies. That's because their governments
recognize and endorse an official state church which gets significant
privileges over all other denominations and religions. Their constitutions
do not forbid the governments from endorsing a particular religion (because
they do).

  In contrast, the US is technically speaking a secular government because
its constitution forbids the government from endorsing a particular
religion.

  Yet something like 85% of people in the nordic countries are secular
(and the governments are largely secular), while something like 95% of
people in the US is Christian.

  Life is stranger than fiction.

-- 
                                                          - Warp

Post a reply to this message

On 16-10-2011 15:30, Warp wrote:
> Patrick Elliott<sel### [at] npgcablecom>  wrote:
>> This is simple. The logic is that a) they are going to hell, just look
>> at how much "worse" their economies are, b) just look at all these (
>> entirely made up) examples of bad laws, and evil things happening in
>> them, c) denial that anything good is happening in those places, and d)
>> an even **bigger** total, and complete, denial that Christians are not
>> the majority religion in the world, or that any place with a lot of
>> churches can "possibly" be non-religious.
>
>    The irony is that most European countries, including the nordic ones,
> are technically speaking theocracies.

To be a theocracy the church(es) should also control legislation and 
provide or choose the politicians. The vatican is in Europe the only 
country where that is the case. You could make a case for England, but I 
don't think you can win that argument.

> That's because their governments
> recognize and endorse an official state church which gets significant
> privileges over all other denominations and religions. Their constitutions
> do not forbid the governments from endorsing a particular religion (because
> they do).

In the Netherlands we have sort of a state religion, in the sense that 
our Queen is from a particular church. But all religions that were 
present in the beginning of the 20th centuries all are treated the same. 
Yes they have privileges, but giving a church tax breaks does not make 
the country a theocracy. Because of the connection between the RC church 
and the Vatican (or for some other reason, IANAH), the RC church was 
allowed to have it's own internal legislation that was respected by the 
Dutch authorities. That is of course a bit less acceptable these days 
because the RC church appears to be ethically rotten to the bone. I am 
not aware that the protestant churches had the same privileges even 
though our Queen is a protestant. Anyway the influence of the church is 
ATM almost completely limited to within the walls of the church.

>    In contrast, the US is technically speaking a secular government because
> its constitution forbids the government from endorsing a particular
> religion.
>
>    Yet something like 85% of people in the nordic countries are secular
> (and the governments are largely secular), while something like 95% of
> people in the US is Christian.

can you give a reference for those numbers?


>    Life is stranger than fiction.

but some life is more equal than others


-- 
Apparently you can afford your own dictator for less than 10 cents per 
citizen per day.

Post a reply to this message

andrel <byt### [at] gmailcom> wrote:
> In the Netherlands we have sort of a state religion, in the sense that 
> our Queen is from a particular church. But all religions that were 
> present in the beginning of the 20th centuries all are treated the same. 
> Yes they have privileges, but giving a church tax breaks does not make 
> the country a theocracy.

  I don't know how it is in Netherlands, but in Finland there's an official
state church (from the Lutheran denomination) that has official special
privileges, and special legislature governing it. No other denomination nor
religion has the same status.

  It's the same in Sweden. Britain naturally also has an official state
church (which has even larger power, as they coronate the country's
king/queen, among other things). I don't know about other European
countries, but AFAIK it's pretty common in most of them.

  In fact, the US is the only western country I know that has no official
state church. I don't know what the technically official status of countries
like Canada and Australia is. (Ok, Australia isn't exactly "western", but
I'm using the colloquial meaning of the word here.)

> >    Yet something like 85% of people in the nordic countries are secular
> > (and the governments are largely secular), while something like 95% of
> > people in the US is Christian.

> can you give a reference for those numbers?

  Nope, just repeating what I have heard from sources I consider decently
reliable. The exact numbers are probably slightly different from those,
but are probably not very far from them.

-- 
                                                          - Warp

Post a reply to this message

On 16-10-2011 17:36, Warp wrote:
> andrel<byt### [at] gmailcom>  wrote:
>> In the Netherlands we have sort of a state religion, in the sense that
>> our Queen is from a particular church. But all religions that were
>> present in the beginning of the 20th centuries all are treated the same.
>> Yes they have privileges, but giving a church tax breaks does not make
>> the country a theocracy.
>
>    I don't know how it is in Netherlands, but in Finland there's an official
> state church (from the Lutheran denomination) that has official special
> privileges, and special legislature governing it. No other denomination nor
> religion has the same status.

But is the church consulted during the law making process? If not it is 
still not a theocracy. Theocracy means that God and its representatives 
are *ruling*.

>    It's the same in Sweden. Britain naturally also has an official state
> church (which has even larger power, as they coronate the country's
> king/queen, among other things). I don't know about other European
> countries, but AFAIK it's pretty common in most of them.
>
>    In fact, the US is the only western country I know that has no official
> state church. I don't know what the technically official status of countries
> like Canada and Australia is. (Ok, Australia isn't exactly "western", but
> I'm using the colloquial meaning of the word here.)
>
>>>     Yet something like 85% of people in the nordic countries are secular
>>> (and the governments are largely secular), while something like 95% of
>>> people in the US is Christian.
>
>> can you give a reference for those numbers?
>
>    Nope, just repeating what I have heard from sources I consider decently
> reliable. The exact numbers are probably slightly different from those,
> but are probably not very far from them.

WIYF
61% secular for the Netherlands and according to W that is one of the 
highest values in Europe. For Finland I can not find a single value but 
the first line in an article about religion in Finland starts with: 
"Most people in Finland are at least nominally members of a Christian 
church,..."
76% Christian in the states according to W. I'll leave it to you to 
judge if your numbers are "probably not very far from them"


-- 
Apparently you can afford your own dictator for less than 10 cents per 
citizen per day.

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On 16/10/2011 4:36 PM, Warp wrote:
> Britain naturally also has an official state
> church (which has even larger power, as they coronate the country's
> king/queen, among other things).

Point of Order, Mr Chairman!
England has a state church, the Church of England. The Church of 
Scotland, The Kirk, rejected that status and is independent of the crown 
and parliament. The Church in Wales is not an established church. And 
for completeness Northern Island which is not part of Britain does not 
have a state church.

-- 
Regards
     Stephen

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andrel <byt### [at] gmailcom> wrote:
> "Most people in Finland are at least nominally members of a Christian 
> church,..."

  Membership of the state church says absolutely nothing. The vast majority
of the members of the church are atheists.

-- 
                                                          - Warp

Post a reply to this message

Stephen <mcavoys_at@aoldotcom> wrote:
> Point of Order, Mr Chairman!
> England has a state church, the Church of England. The Church of 
> Scotland, The Kirk, rejected that status and is independent of the crown 
> and parliament. The Church in Wales is not an established church. And 
> for completeness Northern Island which is not part of Britain does not 
> have a state church.

  England, Britain, United Kingdom... It's all so confusing...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rNu8XDBSn10

-- 
                                                          - Warp

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On 16/10/2011 5:41 PM, Warp wrote:
>    England, Britain, United Kingdom... It's all so confusing...
>

No! (British Isles), United Kingdom, Great Britain, Britain, England, 
Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland (by population).
I understand that it is confusing but you can think of it this way.
There are the four countries.
Britain is the land that the Romans ruled. It includes England, Wales 
and the southern part of Scotland. It was known as Britannia in those days.
Great Britain came into being with the Acts of Union 1707 when Scotland 
joined with England and Wales in having the same parliament. (England 
and Wales, or at least parts of Wales have had the same laws since the 
11th century and the whole of Wales since the 16th century)
There used to be a United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland but that 
went the way of all grass when the Irish took their ball home.
Got it?


> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rNu8XDBSn10

He got it mostly right.

As for the Empire have a look at this children’s programme.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/cbbc/clips/p00g1d5l

-- 
Regards
     Stephen

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On 10/16/2011 6:30 AM, Warp wrote:
> Patrick Elliott<sel### [at] npgcablecom>  wrote:
>> This is simple. The logic is that a) they are going to hell, just look
>> at how much "worse" their economies are, b) just look at all these (
>> entirely made up) examples of bad laws, and evil things happening in
>> them, c) denial that anything good is happening in those places, and d)
>> an even **bigger** total, and complete, denial that Christians are not
>> the majority religion in the world, or that any place with a lot of
>> churches can "possibly" be non-religious.
>
>    The irony is that most European countries, including the nordic ones,
> are technically speaking theocracies. That's because their governments
> recognize and endorse an official state church which gets significant
> privileges over all other denominations and religions. Their constitutions
> do not forbid the governments from endorsing a particular religion (because
> they do).
>
>    In contrast, the US is technically speaking a secular government because
> its constitution forbids the government from endorsing a particular
> religion.
>
>    Yet something like 85% of people in the nordic countries are secular
> (and the governments are largely secular), while something like 95% of
> people in the US is Christian.
>
>    Life is stranger than fiction.
>
There are some people here that theorize that this is precisely 
"because" of the separation thing. Basically, if one group of complete 
nuts run things, and into the ground enough, then it tend to inoculate 
everyone else against them. If you limit that power, such that the 
problems they create are minor, petty, or only effect small numbers of 
people, the default assumption for most is that **their** crazy assed 
belief system wouldn't do the same thing, if *it* was the one trying to 
pass minor, petty, laws, which only effect a relatively small number of 
*other* people.

Post a reply to this message

On 10/16/2011 9:06 AM, andrel wrote:
>> andrel<byt### [at] gmailcom>  wrote:
>>> In the Netherlands we have sort of a state religion, in the sense that
>>> our Queen is from a particular church. But all religions that were
>>> present in the beginning of the 20th centuries all are treated the same.
>>> Yes they have privileges, but giving a church tax breaks does not make
>>> the country a theocracy.
>>
>>    I don't know how it is in Netherlands, but in Finland there's an
>> official
>> state church (from the Lutheran denomination) that has official special
>> privileges, and special legislature governing it. No other
>> denomination nor
>> religion has the same status.
>
> But is the church consulted during the law making process? If not it is
> still not a theocracy. Theocracy means that God and its representatives
> are *ruling*.
Actually, this isn't the right question. The correct question is, "Did, 
at one time, the church have primary control over how laws where 
passed." The answer is yes, and that is why no one lets them bloody to 
it any more. In the US, the answer is, "No, they fought with each other 
over what stupid thing they wanted to have passed, so never got much of 
any where. The result being that every damn one of them, and their 
followers, are *still* convinced that letting one of them dictate the 
law would be a really neato idea."

Post a reply to this message

On 16-10-2011 18:36, Warp wrote:
> andrel<byt### [at] gmailcom>  wrote:
>> "Most people in Finland are at least nominally members of a Christian
>> church,..."
>
>    Membership of the state church says absolutely nothing. The vast majority
> of the members of the church are atheists.

I was afraid you would say that. Because you are now comparing only 
regular church going Europeans with all Christians in the US.


-- 
Apparently you can afford your own dictator for less than 10 cents per 
citizen per day.

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On 10/15/2011 18:46, Patrick Elliott wrote:
> that he couldn't possibly be born in the US,

The thing that cracks me up about all that is that the person he was running 
against *actually* wasn't born in the USA.

-- 
Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
   How come I never get only one kudo?

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On 10/16/2011 6:30, Warp wrote:
> while something like 95% of people in the US is Christian.

I think *that* number is rather high, given that some 15% are atheists and 
some 5% are Jewish, Muslim, etc. (And Mormons get counted as Christians.)

Actually, there ya go:

http://religions.pewforum.org/reports

Pew Forums have actually been around a long time and are fairly respected as 
a source of statistics, too.

-- 
Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
   How come I never get only one kudo?

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On 10/16/2011 8:36, Warp wrote:
> (Ok, Australia isn't exactly "western", but
> I'm using the colloquial meaning of the word here.)

I think they're considered "western" because they were colonized by England 
and didn't have their own flag first.

-- 
Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
   How come I never get only one kudo?

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On 10/16/2011 9:06, andrel wrote:
> 76% Christian in the states according to W.

Plus, it's 76% who *say* they're christian. Then ask how many of them have 
been to church in the last 5 years...  :-)


-- 
Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
   How come I never get only one kudo?

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On 10/16/2011 9:41, Warp wrote:
>    England, Britain, United Kingdom... It's all so confusing...

That was extremely informative in a dense and amusing way. Thanks!

-- 
Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
   How come I never get only one kudo?

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On 10/16/2011 3:33 PM, Darren New wrote:
> On 10/16/2011 6:30, Warp wrote:
>> while something like 95% of people in the US is Christian.
>
> I think *that* number is rather high, given that some 15% are atheists
> and some 5% are Jewish, Muslim, etc. (And Mormons get counted as
> Christians.)
>
> Actually, there ya go:
>
> http://religions.pewforum.org/reports
>
> Pew Forums have actually been around a long time and are fairly
> respected as a source of statistics, too.
>
Mind, its probably inaccurate, in that its practically a national past 
time in the US to deny being agnostic, or even atheist, because you 
don't want he neighbors to find out, or you are doing so for the 
"benefit of others". There are even some priests that have admitted as 
much that the only reason they still have a job is because they think 
religion is "useful" to their parishioners, so are afraid of the 
consequence of admitting they don't believe, and quitting the job.

If even mentioning that you might, maybe, be one, wouldn't make you 
instantly unelectable as even a dog catcher here, and there wasn't a 
whole bloody movement dedicated to lying about them, I would bet the 
number of atheists, and agnostics, was *well* over 15%, but, since I 
have no idea how many it really would be, I think I will stay out of the 
pot, when it comes to exact numbers. It might be depressingly less than 
I would like, or so bloody large that no one would believe the results.

I do know that a *lot* of the "Christians" here are, I suppose, what you 
might call "Atheist Christian", they are pretty sure the Bible is mostly 
bull, that Jesus wasn't divine, and that god isn't out there, probably, 
but they still "believe in" the idea that Jesus came up with some 
amazingly great way of thinking about the world, and acting towards 
others, that no one else ever did. They are also, usually, completely 
clueless as to how factually wrong that is.

Post a reply to this message

Darren New <dne### [at] sanrrcom> wrote:
> On 10/16/2011 6:30, Warp wrote:
> > while something like 95% of people in the US is Christian.

> I think *that* number is rather high, given that some 15% are atheists and 
> some 5% are Jewish, Muslim, etc. (And Mormons get counted as Christians.)

> Actually, there ya go:

> http://religions.pewforum.org/reports

> Pew Forums have actually been around a long time and are fairly respected as 
> a source of statistics, too.

  What? You don't consider Fox News to be a reliable source of information?-)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qzVxHF8T0Hk

-- 
                                                          - Warp

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On 16/10/2011 11:29 PM, Darren New wrote:

> The thing that cracks me up about all that is that the person he was
> running against *actually* wasn't born in the USA.

My lolrus!

Post a reply to this message

On 17/10/2011 03:48 AM, Patrick Elliott wrote:

> Mind, its probably inaccurate, in that its practically a national past
> time in the US to deny being agnostic, or even atheist, because you
> don't want he neighbors to find out

Is it true that if people find out you don't believe in God, you will 
*actually* be brutally murdered in your sleep? Or is that an exaggeration?

Post a reply to this message

On 10/15/2011 10:13 AM, Orchid XP v8 wrote:

> What I /have/ noticed about the USA is that they tend to assert that
> their way of life is the only /correct/ one. Like, the way they live is
> the best way, and the rest of the world just hasn't learned how to be as
> awesome as them yet. Whereas in Europe, each country has roughly similar
> laws and so forth, but there are several areas of fairly drastic
> difference. And then there's culture and so forth. And overall, nobody
> seems to be sitting there saying "we're the best in Europe, and we pitty
> all those other countries who haven't learned how to be like us yet".

Yep. There are definitely people who think that way. If a new concept 
comes around, and we haven't done that in the past, and it involves 
making life better for people, it immediately gets called Socialism 
and/or Communism. The ones you see are the most vocal, often those most 
vocal are also the most insane.

Of course, I take issue with the healthcare bill we passed as it stands, 
now. Essentially, it's written so that everyone *must* get health 
insurance, or be fined. It seems to benefit the insurance companies more 
than it does the people.

As if GB has never said that they are superior? ;)

> Also: The USA is huge. I can't help feeling that somewhere within it,
> there must be some intelligent people. And those people must feel really
> embarrassed that they live in the same country as the morons who make
> America look so bad to the rest of the world with depressing frequency...

I've become numb to it. It doesn't faze me anymore, really. I just let 
them demonstrate beyond all doubt their ignorance ;)

> (I remember when the London riots where happening. And then they started
> happening all over the country. I felt ashemed to be British that day.)
>


-- 
~Mike

Post a reply to this message

>> What I /have/ noticed about the USA is that they tend to assert that
>> their way of life is the only /correct/ one.
>
> Yep. There are definitely people who think that way.

There's probably people like that everywhere. It's just that, for 
whatever reason, this seems to be more prominent in the USA.

[I deliberately use the term "USA" rather than "America" because 
strictly speaking the latter is two entire continents comprising 
multiple countries... I believe the Arrogant Worms make a lengthy song 
about this exact matter...]

> If a new concept
> comes around, and we haven't done that in the past, and it involves
> making life better for people, it immediately gets called Socialism
> and/or Communism.

Yeah. Because Communism is completely evil, right? RIGHT??

Um... I still haven't figured out *why* it's evil, but apparently it is.

> The ones you see are the most vocal, often those most
> vocal are also the most insane.

You *do* seem to have the most insane people. Just saying... ;-)

> Of course, I take issue with the healthcare bill we passed as it stands,
> now. Essentially, it's written so that everyone *must* get health
> insurance, or be fined. It seems to benefit the insurance companies more
> than it does the people.

That does sound kind of defective, actually.

Of course, saying that a specific formulation of something is suboptimal 
is different than saying that anyone who's poor should just be left to 
die, and to do otherwise is to oppose God's will...

> As if GB has never said that they are superior? ;)

At some time, we actually *did* rule half the world. For real. :-P

But yeah, these days, aside from a few people who are like "all them 
niggers should **** off back to their own country", most people in 
Britain don't walk around thinking they're better than the rest of the 
world, or even just the rest of Europe.

>> Also: The USA is huge. I can't help feeling that somewhere within it,
>> there must be some intelligent people. And those people must feel really
>> embarrassed that they live in the same country as the morons who make
>> America look so bad to the rest of the world with depressing frequency...
>
> I've become numb to it. It doesn't faze me anymore, really. I just let
> them demonstrate beyond all doubt their ignorance ;)

You realise that a lot of people think your entire country is filled 
with morons and crazy people, right?

I mean, damn, I have no idea what people who aren't British think about 
Britain - probably that we all eat fish & chips and drink beer all day 
or something - but AFAIK, they don't think we're crazy. At least, I hope 
not. o_O

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On 10/17/2011 7:14, Invisible wrote:
> Um... I still haven't figured out *why* it's evil, but apparently it is.

When I was growing up, communism and fascism and socialism were economic 
policies. Now they're forms of government. At least if you believe a 
dictionary from the '60s and a dictionary from the 2000's.

-- 
Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
   How come I never get only one kudo?

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On 10/17/2011 7:03 AM, Mike Raiford wrote:
> On 10/15/2011 10:13 AM, Orchid XP v8 wrote:
>
>> What I /have/ noticed about the USA is that they tend to assert that
>> their way of life is the only /correct/ one. Like, the way they live is
>> the best way, and the rest of the world just hasn't learned how to be as
>> awesome as them yet. Whereas in Europe, each country has roughly similar
>> laws and so forth, but there are several areas of fairly drastic
>> difference. And then there's culture and so forth. And overall, nobody
>> seems to be sitting there saying "we're the best in Europe, and we pitty
>> all those other countries who haven't learned how to be like us yet".
>
> Yep. There are definitely people who think that way. If a new concept
> comes around, and we haven't done that in the past, and it involves
> making life better for people, it immediately gets called Socialism
> and/or Communism. The ones you see are the most vocal, often those most
> vocal are also the most insane.
>
> Of course, I take issue with the healthcare bill we passed as it stands,
> now. Essentially, it's written so that everyone *must* get health
> insurance, or be fined. It seems to benefit the insurance companies more
> than it does the people.
>
> As if GB has never said that they are superior? ;)
>
Since the original intent had been to set up a separate system to get 
it, so there was competition, but without that.. Still, the principle 
idea of making it so *everyone* has to buy into some isn't to help the 
insurance companies, so much as it is to stop the government having to 
pay out money to help people that didn't buy any, and maybe get them to 
see a doctor "before" it costs 50 times as much to treat them. But, 
yeah, so long as the insurance industry is the "only" source, and they 
can all sit around, together, at a table and decide how to screw 
everyone the next year, it only fixes half the problem.

Its telling though that the other side doesn't even think we need to fix 
*any* problem, except to maybe just not use government money at all, 
ever, for anyone, while still letting the insurance industry run rampant 
over the populous.

Recent law they are trying to pass - Protection for Catholic hospitals, 
which are sadly a large percentage of them, to not merely deny help to 
women on the verge of death, due to pregnancy complications, but to also 
"deny them the right to be transferred to some place where they can be 
treated". The theory being that, somehow, those women are, I don't know 
what the fuck, maybe bribing the Catholic doctors to "fake" illness, or 
causing it themselves, in some proxy to get shipped to another hospital, 
to receive abortions? I mean WTF? But, apparently, this is *way* more 
important than taking jobs seriously, or creating legislation about 
*anything* other than bullshit like this.

>> Also: The USA is huge. I can't help feeling that somewhere within it,
>> there must be some intelligent people. And those people must feel really
>> embarrassed that they live in the same country as the morons who make
>> America look so bad to the rest of the world with depressing frequency...
>
> I've become numb to it. It doesn't faze me anymore, really. I just let
> them demonstrate beyond all doubt their ignorance ;)
>
Unfortunately, one of the things such nutcases count on is the rest of 
us becoming "numb to it" and not bloody doing a damn thing about it. 
Scares the shit out of them when people do silly things like you know, 
vote, or march. That being why they are trying damn hard, where ever 
they can, to make both as hard as bloody possible for those of us that 
might actually have gotten, finally, pissed off enough to do either.

Post a reply to this message

On 10/17/2011 1:20 AM, Invisible wrote:
> On 17/10/2011 03:48 AM, Patrick Elliott wrote:
>
>> Mind, its probably inaccurate, in that its practically a national past
>> time in the US to deny being agnostic, or even atheist, because you
>> don't want he neighbors to find out
>
> Is it true that if people find out you don't believe in God, you will
> *actually* be brutally murdered in your sleep? Or is that an exaggeration?
Depends, which state did you hear it happening in?

Mind, that is an exaggeration of the truth, but its not that damn 
dissimilar to the reality in some places.

Post a reply to this message

Patrick Elliott <sel### [at] npgcablecom> wrote:
> Recent law they are trying to pass - Protection for Catholic hospitals, 
> which are sadly a large percentage of them, to not merely deny help to 
> women on the verge of death, due to pregnancy complications, but to also 
> "deny them the right to be transferred to some place where they can be 
> treated". The theory being that, somehow, those women are, I don't know 
> what the fuck, maybe bribing the Catholic doctors to "fake" illness, or 
> causing it themselves, in some proxy to get shipped to another hospital, 
> to receive abortions? I mean WTF? But, apparently, this is *way* more 
> important than taking jobs seriously, or creating legislation about 
> *anything* other than bullshit like this.

  I hear that in some state they are trying to redefine the legal meaning
of "rape" in such a way that it's not grounds for abortion anymore. This
not to talk about that law proposal that women seeking abortion must be
subjected to a mandatory and extensive guilt-trip by the doctor (among
other things, the doctor must make her listen to the heartbeat of the
fetus, give a long lecture about the sanctity of life, and whatnot).

  I don't really get it. Rather than these right-wing nutjobs jumping
through incredibly ridiculous hoops to make abortion illegal in practice,
why they don't simply make it illegal, period? That's what they want. Why
are they engaging in these ridiculous legal acrobatics? (Not that I would
endorse them to do that, I'm just honestly wondering. Is it some kind of
federal law that they cannot override or something?)

-- 
                                                          - Warp

Post a reply to this message

On 10/17/2011 7:03, Mike Raiford wrote:
> As if GB has never said that they are superior? ;)

Actually, I spent several minutes trying to figure out which George Bush you 
were talking about here.

-- 
Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
   How come I never get only one kudo?

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On 10/17/2011 12:19, Warp wrote:
> why they don't simply make it illegal, period?

They tried. The supreme court decided that abortions in the first 3 months 
are so are the private business of the woman and her doctor, so you can't 
make a federal law against it. (That's the whole "Roe vs Wade" court case.)

Changing that federal law would take some 66% of the senators and 75% of the 
states agreeing to it.

> federal law that they cannot override or something?)

Yes. Read about "Roe vs Wade", which is the court case that most broadly 
covers this particular topic.

-- 
Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
   How come I never get only one kudo?

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On 17-10-2011 16:14, Invisible wrote:
>>> What I /have/ noticed about the USA is that they tend to assert that
>>> their way of life is the only /correct/ one.
>>
>> Yep. There are definitely people who think that way.
>
> There's probably people like that everywhere. It's just that, for
> whatever reason, this seems to be more prominent in the USA.
>
> [I deliberately use the term "USA" rather than "America" because
> strictly speaking the latter is two entire continents comprising
> multiple countries... I believe the Arrogant Worms make a lengthy song
> about this exact matter...]
>
>> If a new concept
>> comes around, and we haven't done that in the past, and it involves
>> making life better for people, it immediately gets called Socialism
>> and/or Communism.
>
> Yeah. Because Communism is completely evil, right? RIGHT??
>
> Um... I still haven't figured out *why* it's evil, but apparently it is.

Because the leaders of the communist revolution did not respect the 
properties and privileges of the rich. Besides they also did not think 
rich politically dominant churches were a good idea, hence it was 
written in the bible that the communists were evil.

OK in most cases the communists turned out to be evil, but when the 
propaganda began they had no way of knowing that. Besides they were evil 
in almost the same way as capitalists. Who was more evil: Stalin or 
Hitler, Brezhnev or Videla, Batista or Castro? And when? When they were 
in power or only in hindsight?

Post a reply to this message

On 17-10-2011 21:24, Darren New wrote:
> On 10/17/2011 7:03, Mike Raiford wrote:
>> As if GB has never said that they are superior? ;)
>
> Actually, I spent several minutes trying to figure out which George Bush
> you were talking about here.

And, which one was it?


-- 
Apparently you can afford your own dictator for less than 10 cents per 
citizen per day.

Post a reply to this message

Darren New <dne### [at] sanrrcom> wrote:
> On 10/17/2011 12:19, Warp wrote:
> > why they don't simply make it illegal, period?

> They tried. The supreme court decided that abortions in the first 3 months 
> are so are the private business of the woman and her doctor, so you can't 
> make a federal law against it. (That's the whole "Roe vs Wade" court case.)

> Changing that federal law would take some 66% of the senators and 75% of the 
> states agreeing to it.

  So instead they are trying to make it illegal de-facto, even though
*technically* it's still legal de-jure?

  Shouldn't there be a federal law against states trying to circumvent
federal laws?

-- 
                                                          - Warp

Post a reply to this message

On 10/17/2011 13:07, Warp wrote:
>    So instead they are trying to make it illegal de-facto, even though
> *technically* it's still legal de-jure?

Yes, basically. And interestingly enough, politicians all get asked about 
this, in spite of the fact that everyone knows it can't really be changed 
without a major upheaval of power.

>    Shouldn't there be a federal law against states trying to circumvent
> federal laws?

Every law can be circumvented somehow. :-)

-- 
Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
   How come I never get only one kudo?

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>> Is it true that if people find out you don't believe in God, you will
>> *actually* be brutally murdered in your sleep? Or is that an
>> exaggeration?

> Depends, which state did you hear it happening in?
>
> Mind, that is an exaggeration of the truth, but its not that damn
> dissimilar to the reality in some places.

OK, *so* glad I decided not to take that trip to America now... o_O

Post a reply to this message

On 10/18/2011 0:57, Invisible wrote:
>>> Is it true that if people find out you don't believe in God, you will
>>> *actually* be brutally murdered in your sleep? Or is that an
>>> exaggeration?
>
>> Depends, which state did you hear it happening in?
>>
>> Mind, that is an exaggeration of the truth, but its not that damn
>> dissimilar to the reality in some places.
>
> OK, *so* glad I decided not to take that trip to America now... o_O

Actually, no, nobody actually gets murdered in their sleep for being 
atheists. You get nasty looks from neighbors, and teachers give your kids 
bad grades, and your house might even get TPed, but even that is very rare 
and limited to small towns where everyone is inbred anyway.

-- 
Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
   How come I never get only one kudo?

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>> OK, *so* glad I decided not to take that trip to America now... o_O
>
> Actually, no, nobody actually gets murdered in their sleep for being
> atheists. You get nasty looks from neighbors, and teachers give your
> kids bad grades, and your house might even get TPed

...so it's like living in England if you happen to be Asian?

> but even that is
> very rare and limited to small towns where everyone is inbred anyway.

"Small towns where everyone is inbred anyway" is TRWTF. o_O

-- 
http://blog.orphi.me.uk/
http://www.zazzle.com/MathematicalOrchid*

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