On 15/10/2011 8:48 PM, andrel wrote:
> On 15-10-2011 18:40, Darren New wrote:
>
>> Sure they are. They have all that awful legalized prostitution and
>> drugs, and anyway God hates them, and that's good enough. ;-)
>
> So that is why we had to build our country by ourselves? God didn't
> *want* to.
>

Lucky you. Look at the mess *He/She/It* made of everywhere else. ;-)
And although Darren was being ironic. I must say that I think that you 
Lowlanders have got it right. No wars that you can't win. ;-)

-- 
Regards
     Stephen

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On 15/10/2011 7:16 PM, Orchid XP v8 wrote:
>
> That's not a car "running on water", any more than a normal car that
> uses water to reduce engine temperature is "running on water".

Have another thought then have another guess.

-- 
Regards
     Stephen

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On 10/15/2011 5:39 AM, Warp wrote:
>    Not living in the US, only seeing what's happening there from far away,
> my notion may very well be really biased and limited, but I get the strong
> impression that many Americans seem to live in some kind of social bubble
> where they subconsciously think that they are the only people in the world
> (or at least the only people with a modern western culture and society).
> In other words, they have an extremely US-centric view of the world.
>
I think the problem is more that certain "monied" people, a small number 
of Rupert Murdock like news agencies, and one entire political party (or 
at least the current leadership, and an unfortunate number of others 
that thought they sounded like a great idea), are literally unhinged, in 
several ways, not the least being a complete inability to accept, or 
acknowledge, that the US doesn't have all the answers, to every problem.

>    Three examples:
>
>
>    1) Many critics of the "occupy Wall Street" movement accuse the protesters
> of opposing capitalism.
>
>    I don't understand this accusation at all. It seems to imply that the only
> possible form of capitalism is the one which is enacted in the US, where
> the government is largely lobbied by large corporations, where these
> corporations (in large part thanks to this lobbying) can get away with
> screwing up people, where basically everything is privatized (including
> things like the healthcare system), where banks and other corporations whose
> only goal is to make money with money (and which do not produce anything)
> deliberately screwing up the economy by shady (and sometimes outright illegal)
> tactics and for their own benefit at the cost of others is normal, and where
> individuals have basically no rights over big corporations.
>
>    This kind of mentality completely ignores the fact that the US is not the
> only capitalist country in the world. It might be unique in its particular
> form of capitalism, but it's certainly not the only capitalist country.
> Most other western countries have a form of capitalism that is much more
> controlled by the government, where large corporations are not free to do
> whatever they want, and it works just ok.
>
>    I get the feeling that these people seem to think, at some level, that
> the US is the only "true" capitalist country in the world, and the rest is
> just socialist countries or banana republics, and that eroding anything in
> the current US capitalist system is going towards socialism and communism.
>
>
The majority of actual people are a) part of this movement, or b) 
sympathetic of it, its purely the idiots in "some" of the news, and the 
party they shill for, which think this way.

>    2) If you do a bit of searching, you will find tons of conspiracy theories
> about how the FDA is shutting down, hiding and attacking alternative cures
> for all kinds of diseases. Miracle cures for cancer seem to be the most
> popular ones. You can find lengthy "documentaries" about this very subject.
>
>    These conspiracy theories are *so* US-centric that it gives me nausea.
> Apparently to these people the FDA either controls the entire world, or
> alternatively the US is the only country in the world where any kind of
> medical research is performed (under the tight grip of the FDA, of course).
>
>    I don't remember any of these conspiracy theories trying to explain how
> it's possible that there exists a miracle cure for cancer (or whatever),
> yet no other country has started using it. Countries that have absolutely
> nothing to do with the US and the FDA.
>
Yeah, we have a fine tradition of this kind of nutso BS in the US. As 
someone put it, "when your kooks are on the sideline, and 'sometimes' 
figure out a good idea, by accident, its beneficial to the country. 
However, when your kooks end up center stage, get their own TV shows, or 
run for congress, you have a problem." The first "celebrity" kook was 
the Atlantis guy, only he started out backwards, we *was* in congress 
(or maybe the senate, I don't remember at the moment), and is one of the 
only people ever thrown out, after he went off and ranted, quite 
insanely, against his own friend, apparently, during a session, in front 
of everyone. He then made a fairly unexciting career as a failed 
politician, and crank, before cobbling together a load of complete 
nonsense, based on a few lines in a Greek poem. Now, you can't, 
literally, find one single reference too, nut case looking for, or claim 
about, the lost city of Atlantis, which isn't **directly** tied to his 
original, idiotic, book. Being that, before him, no one even dared 
suggest that there *was* something to look for, this is hardly surprising.

But, now we do it backwards here in the US. We let someone spend years 
as a complete nutcase, then give him fame, then, if they don't seriously 
screw up, elect them.
>
>    3) Many Christians in the US (at least in some parts of it) have
> this conviction that atheism leads to complete immorality, anarchy,
> every-man-for-himself attitudes, violence, crime and complete chaos.
> This is one of the reasons why they vilify and discriminate against
> atheists so strongly (way more than believers in other religions). They
> are seen as absolutely immoral monsters and beasts who would immediately
> go in a violent crime rampage if it were not for all the Christians keeping
> law and order.
>
>    These people seem to be completely oblivious to the fact that there
> are many countries where Christianity is not predominant. Moreover, there
> are countries where *no* religion is predominant. For example in the northern
> European countries something like 85% of people are secular, many of them
> outspoken atheists. Similar numbers are true for most of Europe. While in
> the US the atheist is the odd-man-out, the exception to the rule, the
> reverse is true here.
>
>    Yet these countries have not fallen into chaos and anarchy, their societies
> crumbling under the lack of morality, order and law. In fact, there are
> statistically *less* crime in most European countries than there is in
> the US (regardless of the type of crime). Yet these American Christians
> seem either completely unaware of this, don't want to think about it,
> or actively ignore or deny it.
>

This is simple. The logic is that a) they are going to hell, just look 
at how much "worse" their economies are, b) just look at all these ( 
entirely made up) examples of bad laws, and evil things happening in 
them, c) denial that anything good is happening in those places, and d) 
an even **bigger** total, and complete, denial that Christians are not 
the majority religion in the world, or that any place with a lot of 
churches can "possibly" be non-religious.

Between the denialism, the outright lies, and the practical total 
disinterest in the US media to show, admit to, or mention, except in a 
negative context, any "secularism" any place else, its hardly a surprise 
that the majority of the population imagines Europe as a vast empire of 
Christian idealism, with a few horrible, probably socialist, imperial, 
left wing, fascist, atheist, communists, running around trying to 
destroy it. And, well.. If that isn't the case, then, just look how much 
"better" the news tells us we are, compared to everyone else, so we damn 
well better not try any of that anti-corporatism, anti-religious, 
socialist, bullshit here. It might, cause a recession, or something!

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On 10/15/2011 9:40 AM, Darren New wrote:
> We also have people complaining that Obama has the wrong kind of birth
> certificate and stupid shit like that. They're also very loud and
> irrational.
>
Strictly speaking, this isn't "quite" what the idiot complaint is. The 
argument was, initially, that he couldn't possibly be born in the US, 
and thus be president. What followed was the proclamation that Hawaii 
officials *must* have been bribed to create a fake "short form" 
certificate, because they refused to release the original (which is 
plausible, as least in terms of the short form being not a direct 
photocopy of the original, but completely stupid, in that you kind of 
have to "prove" that someone was bribed, or something like that...). 
Only later did some of the more serious nutcases argue that even the 
original long form had to be fake, because well, it was all a 
conspiracy, somehow, by his parents, to make him president, somehow, 
right from like, the day he was born, in someplace not the US, or like.. 
something.

Sadly, one of the idiots in Arizona, if you believe the tabloids (and 
sometimes they do, in cases like this, tell something resembling truth), 
is still wasting time, and government money, on "proving it a fake!"

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On 10/15/2011 9:54 AM, Stephen wrote:
> On 15/10/2011 5:40 PM, Darren New wrote:
>> Because you're thinking it's part of a rational, logical argument,
>> rather than the financial equivalent of screaming "you're not
>> patriotic!!1!"
>>
>
> That reminds me. I was travelling home from the States at the beginning
> of July. One of our security guards said, “At least you will get to
> spend the holiday at home.” I had to remind him that we don’t actually
> celebrate America’s Independence Day in Britain,
>
>
>>
>> Again, people who fall for this are the same people who aren't too
>> bright. They also think there's a car engine that runs on water that the
>> oil companies are buying the patents to and hiding, not even realizing
>> that if it's patented it's already public knowledge.
>
> There is/was a car engine that runs on water. The principle was that
> water was sprayed into the cylinder just after the spark to increase the
> efficiency of the combustion force. Why it was not developed I can’t
> say. (Where is Scott when you need him?)
>
No no no. They bought off the guy that made it, then bribed the patent 
office, with the help of aliens, and the FDA, under the control of the 
Pentagon, to alter to patent, or substitute a different one, so no one 
could *ever* create one. Honest, my shoe told me so. Not my left one 
though, that one always lies!

lol

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Patrick Elliott <sel### [at] npgcablecom> wrote:
> This is simple. The logic is that a) they are going to hell, just look 
> at how much "worse" their economies are, b) just look at all these ( 
> entirely made up) examples of bad laws, and evil things happening in 
> them, c) denial that anything good is happening in those places, and d) 
> an even **bigger** total, and complete, denial that Christians are not 
> the majority religion in the world, or that any place with a lot of 
> churches can "possibly" be non-religious.

  The irony is that most European countries, including the nordic ones,
are technically speaking theocracies. That's because their governments
recognize and endorse an official state church which gets significant
privileges over all other denominations and religions. Their constitutions
do not forbid the governments from endorsing a particular religion (because
they do).

  In contrast, the US is technically speaking a secular government because
its constitution forbids the government from endorsing a particular
religion.

  Yet something like 85% of people in the nordic countries are secular
(and the governments are largely secular), while something like 95% of
people in the US is Christian.

  Life is stranger than fiction.

-- 
                                                          - Warp

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On 16-10-2011 15:30, Warp wrote:
> Patrick Elliott<sel### [at] npgcablecom>  wrote:
>> This is simple. The logic is that a) they are going to hell, just look
>> at how much "worse" their economies are, b) just look at all these (
>> entirely made up) examples of bad laws, and evil things happening in
>> them, c) denial that anything good is happening in those places, and d)
>> an even **bigger** total, and complete, denial that Christians are not
>> the majority religion in the world, or that any place with a lot of
>> churches can "possibly" be non-religious.
>
>    The irony is that most European countries, including the nordic ones,
> are technically speaking theocracies.

To be a theocracy the church(es) should also control legislation and 
provide or choose the politicians. The vatican is in Europe the only 
country where that is the case. You could make a case for England, but I 
don't think you can win that argument.

> That's because their governments
> recognize and endorse an official state church which gets significant
> privileges over all other denominations and religions. Their constitutions
> do not forbid the governments from endorsing a particular religion (because
> they do).

In the Netherlands we have sort of a state religion, in the sense that 
our Queen is from a particular church. But all religions that were 
present in the beginning of the 20th centuries all are treated the same. 
Yes they have privileges, but giving a church tax breaks does not make 
the country a theocracy. Because of the connection between the RC church 
and the Vatican (or for some other reason, IANAH), the RC church was 
allowed to have it's own internal legislation that was respected by the 
Dutch authorities. That is of course a bit less acceptable these days 
because the RC church appears to be ethically rotten to the bone. I am 
not aware that the protestant churches had the same privileges even 
though our Queen is a protestant. Anyway the influence of the church is 
ATM almost completely limited to within the walls of the church.

>    In contrast, the US is technically speaking a secular government because
> its constitution forbids the government from endorsing a particular
> religion.
>
>    Yet something like 85% of people in the nordic countries are secular
> (and the governments are largely secular), while something like 95% of
> people in the US is Christian.

can you give a reference for those numbers?


>    Life is stranger than fiction.

but some life is more equal than others


-- 
Apparently you can afford your own dictator for less than 10 cents per 
citizen per day.

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andrel <byt### [at] gmailcom> wrote:
> In the Netherlands we have sort of a state religion, in the sense that 
> our Queen is from a particular church. But all religions that were 
> present in the beginning of the 20th centuries all are treated the same. 
> Yes they have privileges, but giving a church tax breaks does not make 
> the country a theocracy.

  I don't know how it is in Netherlands, but in Finland there's an official
state church (from the Lutheran denomination) that has official special
privileges, and special legislature governing it. No other denomination nor
religion has the same status.

  It's the same in Sweden. Britain naturally also has an official state
church (which has even larger power, as they coronate the country's
king/queen, among other things). I don't know about other European
countries, but AFAIK it's pretty common in most of them.

  In fact, the US is the only western country I know that has no official
state church. I don't know what the technically official status of countries
like Canada and Australia is. (Ok, Australia isn't exactly "western", but
I'm using the colloquial meaning of the word here.)

> >    Yet something like 85% of people in the nordic countries are secular
> > (and the governments are largely secular), while something like 95% of
> > people in the US is Christian.

> can you give a reference for those numbers?

  Nope, just repeating what I have heard from sources I consider decently
reliable. The exact numbers are probably slightly different from those,
but are probably not very far from them.

-- 
                                                          - Warp

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On 16-10-2011 17:36, Warp wrote:
> andrel<byt### [at] gmailcom>  wrote:
>> In the Netherlands we have sort of a state religion, in the sense that
>> our Queen is from a particular church. But all religions that were
>> present in the beginning of the 20th centuries all are treated the same.
>> Yes they have privileges, but giving a church tax breaks does not make
>> the country a theocracy.
>
>    I don't know how it is in Netherlands, but in Finland there's an official
> state church (from the Lutheran denomination) that has official special
> privileges, and special legislature governing it. No other denomination nor
> religion has the same status.

But is the church consulted during the law making process? If not it is 
still not a theocracy. Theocracy means that God and its representatives 
are *ruling*.

>    It's the same in Sweden. Britain naturally also has an official state
> church (which has even larger power, as they coronate the country's
> king/queen, among other things). I don't know about other European
> countries, but AFAIK it's pretty common in most of them.
>
>    In fact, the US is the only western country I know that has no official
> state church. I don't know what the technically official status of countries
> like Canada and Australia is. (Ok, Australia isn't exactly "western", but
> I'm using the colloquial meaning of the word here.)
>
>>>     Yet something like 85% of people in the nordic countries are secular
>>> (and the governments are largely secular), while something like 95% of
>>> people in the US is Christian.
>
>> can you give a reference for those numbers?
>
>    Nope, just repeating what I have heard from sources I consider decently
> reliable. The exact numbers are probably slightly different from those,
> but are probably not very far from them.

WIYF
61% secular for the Netherlands and according to W that is one of the 
highest values in Europe. For Finland I can not find a single value but 
the first line in an article about religion in Finland starts with: 
"Most people in Finland are at least nominally members of a Christian 
church,..."
76% Christian in the states according to W. I'll leave it to you to 
judge if your numbers are "probably not very far from them"


-- 
Apparently you can afford your own dictator for less than 10 cents per 
citizen per day.

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On 16/10/2011 4:36 PM, Warp wrote:
> Britain naturally also has an official state
> church (which has even larger power, as they coronate the country's
> king/queen, among other things).

Point of Order, Mr Chairman!
England has a state church, the Church of England. The Church of 
Scotland, The Kirk, rejected that status and is independent of the crown 
and parliament. The Church in Wales is not an established church. And 
for completeness Northern Island which is not part of Britain does not 
have a state church.

-- 
Regards
     Stephen

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