On 10/11/2011 12:01 PM, Orchid XP v8 wrote:
>>> a product that you already have lying around and try to sell it to a
>>> completely different audience...
>>
>> You'll notice that Blender is free, right?
>
> Sure. That doesn't mean it's well designed. ;-)
>
Often, if its like the first 10... or so versions after the "in house" 
version, its pretty much a given that it *won't be* well designed. 
Though, as the poor bastard that has to figure it out, and doesn't have 
the original company to "help them" do that, design isn't necessarily 
the problem so much as an inordinate need to know what drugs they where 
taking when they wrote it, so you can inform the local equivalent of the 
ATF, so they can keep an eye out for it on the streets.

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On 10/11/2011 12:17 PM, andrel wrote:
> On 11-10-2011 21:08, Darren New wrote:
>
>> It also means it isn't being sold to a different audience than it was
>> built for.
>>
>
> Missed most of the communication on Blender (lack of time forces me to
> stop reading deep down levels of long communications).
> Just dropping in here that Blender is very useable, provided that you
> work with it for some time. Unlike perhaps other software where the
> learning curve is shallower but much longer.
>
> I have two students now to create some models, one mainly using Blender
> and one Maya. We will be playing around for one month and then decide
> which one we are going to use for the rest of their internship. It is
> not a clear cut win for Maya so far.
>
>
In my case, I need something to "build with". All the other crap, 
including the "paint on the mesh", is well.. either a distraction, or no 
where near as close to "full" as I could get just mangling an image in 
Photoshop, and trying to "fit" that to the UV of the object (not that 
doing that is all that easy, if the mess, even unwrapped, is stupid 
complicated). So.. I have something hard to learn, with 50 times the 
features I need, and the ones it "does" have, are incomplete, in strange 
places, or... well, not quite what I am looking for.

The sad thing is, since Linden Labs picked, for some strange reason, 
Collada as its import mesh type, its also the only one that supports it 
"natively", with having to convert. So, even if I had Rhino, I would 
have to export from the "native" 3DM, to like OBJ, then, if Blender 
supports that, maybe export to the right one, or, if not, load it into 
something that exports to something Blender can use, or which the 
Collada converter they suggest can convert "from", to the correct one. 
All with my fingers crossed, that the result won't be a disaster.

I have been through this before, with POVRay, and 50 different formats, 
no two of which where supported by every application, and some of which 
where supported (and still are) by *none* of them. Like, a few mesh 
formats where the last known converter was from the days when Raytracing 
Worlds was published...

All I want is something to build meshes in, and has as many bloody ways 
to do that as possible, without all the other stuff getting in the way. 
Apparently, I am on the wrong planet to find that. lol

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Le 11/10/2011 21:31, Orchid XP v8 a écrit :
> On 11/10/2011 08:21 PM, andrel wrote:
>> On 11-10-2011 21:15, Orchid XP v8 wrote:
>>>>> Uh, what's a serial terminal? Also, what's a kernel debugger?
>>>>
>>>> you are showing your age.
>>>
>>> Well, yes... I thought it was common knowledge? :-}
>>
>> Too young to have met with a VT100 and too old to have met Google.
> 
> I was under the general impression that the VT100 was "expensive".
> Although I'm not sure exactly where I got that impression from. But
> anyway, rather too expensive for anybody to just have one laying around
> in their house...
> 
VT100 was/is a CRT terminal, usually monochrome (either green or amber
display). As any CRT, it was expansive to manufacture.
It also had a keyboard (no mouse, you pervert) and a dedicated firmware
to handle a serial line (the 25 copper-line connector one) as DTE.

The serial line could be long enough to cross a few room.

Coupled with a relevant concentrator/server at the other end of the
serial line, you could ends up having multiple sessions at once on the
VT100, toggling between session with a set of keypress.

Display is 80x24 characters, usually ascii only. (or was it 80x25 ?)
Underline & Bold are possible, as well as inverse video, but not italic,
IIRC. It could also be able to flash (alternating video).

The expensive part is not the VT100, it was the computer you would
attach it to. No point in having a VT100 in everyhouse at that time.

The computing power of VT100 is nearly none, when Compared to
intelligent terminal such as IBM 3270.

-- 
Software is like dirt - it costs time and money to change it and move it
around.

Just because you can't see it, it doesn't weigh anything,
and you can't drill a hole in it and stick a rivet into it doesn't mean
it's free.

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>> I was under the general impression that the VT100 was "expensive".
>>
> VT100 was/is a CRT terminal, usually monochrome (either green or amber
> display). As any CRT, it was expansive to manufacture.
> It also had a keyboard (no mouse, you pervert) and a dedicated firmware
> to handle a serial line (the 25 copper-line connector one) as DTE.
>
> The serial line could be long enough to cross a few room.
>
> Coupled with a relevant concentrator/server at the other end of the
> serial line, you could ends up having multiple sessions at once on the
> VT100, toggling between session with a set of keypress.
>
> Display is 80x24 characters, usually ascii only. (or was it 80x25 ?)
> Underline&  Bold are possible, as well as inverse video, but not italic,
> IIRC. It could also be able to flash (alternating video).
>
> The expensive part is not the VT100, it was the computer you would
> attach it to. No point in having a VT100 in everyhouse at that time.
>
> The computing power of VT100 is nearly none, when Compared to
> intelligent terminal such as IBM 3270.

OK. So... this discussion started because it was pointed out that the 
Amiga flashes the power light to warn you to press DEL on your serial 
terminal to start the kernel debugger. Now given that the Amiga is a 
home computer, how many homes have a VT100 just laying around?

Well, I guess a home user isn't going to be trying to run a kernel 
debugger anyway. But how many business in the 1990s had a VT100 laying 
around?

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On 11/10/2011 08:17 PM, andrel wrote:

> Missed most of the communication on Blender (lack of time forces me to
> stop reading deep down levels of long communications).
> Just dropping in here that Blender is very useable, provided that you
> work with it for some time.

I gather Blender was originally impossible to work, and they've now 
spent time on improving that. I don't think I've ever tried to use 
Blender personally (but I may be wrong about that...)

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>> RC4 has weaknesses concerning related keys. Also, the first few KB of the
>> keystream is quite weak. Also, the keystream has certain statistical
>> weaknesses. Also...
>
> Yep. I'm not saying it's the best protocol. I'm saying it hasn't been
> broken wide open as you seemed to be implying.

It just makes me twitchy, that's all.

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On 11/10/2011 09:13 PM, Darren New wrote:
> On 10/11/2011 13:02, Orchid XP v8 wrote:
>> So Microsoft has secretly implemented an undocumented system to allow any
>> unauthenticated Internet node to bypass all security restrictions and
>> access
>> any port on a Windows PC?
>
> You mean the "secret" IPv6 standard documentation on how to do this
> tunneling?

The "secret" part being that they didn't warn anybody "hey, we've 
implemented a new feature to completely disable the security of your 
network".

>> (Although I still don't quite get how it can bypass a firewall that
>> doesn't
>> allow inbound traffic. Still, Wikipedia says it does, so it must be
>> true.)
>
> The same way IPv4 ssh does. It tunnels out first. It's not like anyone
> can connect to your machine that you don't know about, any more than
> returning IP packets from a TCP connection "bypass" your firewall.

Either it does allow more people to connect, or it doesn't. Make you 
mind up!

The thing about NAT is that [in the default configuration] it allows 
outbound connections only. Either Teredo tunnelling changes that 
invariant, or it doesn't.

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On 10/12/2011 1:13, Invisible wrote:
> Now given that the Amiga is a home computer, how
> many homes have a VT100 just laying around?

The VT100 is not the only serial terminal. Anything that talks RS232 serial 
is sufficient. You know, like, another Amiga, say?

-- 
Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
   How come I never get only one kudo?

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On 10/12/2011 1:27, Invisible wrote:
> The "secret" part being that they didn't warn anybody "hey, we've
> implemented a new feature to completely disable the security of your network".

It's no more disabling the security of your network than telnet or pop3 or 
http is. You have to tunnel out before you can get any answers back.

Besides, it's part of IPv6. How much more do they have to warn you, other 
than publishing it worldwide in RFCs?

> Either it does allow more people to connect, or it doesn't. Make you mind up!

Why don't you read up on how it works?

-- 
Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
   How come I never get only one kudo?

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On 12-10-2011 7:50, Patrick Elliott wrote:
> On 10/11/2011 12:58 PM, Orchid XP v8 wrote:
>> On 11/10/2011 08:41 PM, Darren New wrote:
>>> On 10/11/2011 12:10, Orchid XP v8 wrote:
>>>> I suppose Windows also doesn't stop responding when you change your
>>>> TCP/IP
>>>> configuration settings?
>>>
>>> Um, no?
>>>
>>>> (Actually, that one seems to vary. On some
>>>> computers, you change it and it doesn't even blink. On others, you
>>>> change it
>>>> and have to sit there for multiple minutes before it wakes up again...)
>>>
>>> Maybe your DHCP server is hosed up or something?
>>
>> It seems to be more common with laptops, so maybe it's related to Wi-Fi
>> or something... Or maybe I'm imaginig that part.
>>
>>>> Since Explorer is 90% of the Windows GUI, that's not a particularly
>>>> drastic difference...
>>>
>>> Only if you don't interact with actual programs. Saying "the GUI locks
>>> up" on Linux, for example, means every program stops responding because
>>> you just crashed the X server.
>>
>> OK. I can't change window [because the task bar isn't working, and
>> Alt+Tab isn't working], I can't open Task Manager to see what's
>> happening, I can't lock or unlock the screen [Ctrl+Alt+Del doesn't do
>> anything]. But sure, if I happen to have an application open, maybe it
>> stays running. [I haven't ever tested that.]
>>
> This is actually possibly the case. I have had "other" things cause a
> similar result. Generally, they peg some process, or memory handling, or
> something to max, and only lock the application *causing it*. The
> problem of course being, if you are in the application that created the
> problem, the whole thing seems to stop bloody working, and you can't get
> out of it, to do anything else, including ctrl-alt-del.

That is what 'surprises' me everytime. How can you design an OS where it 
is possible to prevent a task switch to a taskmanager. I assume it is 
because it wasn't designed but grown. Still, by now they should have 
solved that, I would assume.
To Andy: I have some programs that when fed enough input will apparently 
freeze the machine, if I wait 5 minutes I get it back when the process 
has processed the data. So, yes it stays running. Unfortunately that 5 
can also be 2 or 20, there is nothing to indicate what will happen. In 
defence of Bill, my Ubuntu version just crashes. It does not freeze the 
machine, but it also gets nothing done.
BTW this is when reading a 1-2 million faces text file in into Blender. 
And when going into edit mode after that and...
(but Maya can not even handle halve as much).

-- 
Apparently you can afford your own dictator for less than 10 cents per 
citizen per day.

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