On 10/8/2011 14:44, Jim Henderson wrote:
> Windows Server 2000 as a domain controller.  If you lose your
> administrator password, you're hosed.  You're reinstalling.

Um, that's a good thing, you know. You're not supposed to recover from that.

My laptop has an encrypted drive. If I forget my password, I can't get to 
it. That's not a flaw, that's a design goal.

> Half the Windows machines wouldn't boot.  All the *nix and NetWare
> machines (and AS/400s et al) booted more or less without any issue at all.

Never had that problem, myself.

On the other hand, I have had the power go out without warning 20 minutes 
into a 30-minute compile on a mainframe. When the power came back, the 
compile finished in 10 minutes. Something you won't see Linux *or* Windows 
doing.

> It's an inconvenience.  An annoyance.

No it's not. Why would it be?

> Something that's far too often
> required on Windows.

Not any more, really. I can't remember the last time an upgrade asked me to 
reboot.

> Sorry, *that's* not troubleshooting.  That's problem avoidance.

True. But it isn't a whole let better on Linux, unless you're a developer. 
On Windows, the problem gets automatically reported back to the developer 
anyway, if you set it up that way. :-)

> Relatively recent being "in the last 10 years or so".  That's about 2-3
> technological generations.

Sure. Just saying, it was other systems making it easier that drove Linux to 
doing this, methinks.

> I might as well name Windows faults based on experiences exclusively with
> Windows 3.1.

I'm not describing faults. I'm describing "catching up with other more 
popular systems."

>> Is it included standard in Linux? ;-)
>
> No, but at least one of the tools is a free tool to download and use.

Methinks you missed my joke. Earlier you were talking about dev tools on 
Windows not counting because they had to be downloaded.

-- 
Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
   How come I never get only one kudo?

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On 10/8/2011 14:45, Jim Henderson wrote:
> On Sat, 08 Oct 2011 09:48:10 -0700, Darren New wrote:
>
>> On 10/7/2011 21:47, Jim Henderson wrote:
>>> Well, no, it's more about advanced usage.  And CLI in Windows these
>>> days is also for advanced users.
>>
>> And for anything above the level of really simple BAT files, you're
>> better off using wsh, which is much closer to bash than cmd.exe.
>
> And a relatively recent development, no?

"""
Windows Script Host is distributed and installed by default on Windows 98 
and later versions of Windows. It is also installed if Internet Explorer 5 
(or a later version) is installed. Beginning with Windows 2000, the Windows 
Script Host became available for use with user login scripts.
"""

No.

>>> Like you said, it's an extra install.  sed/grep/awk/perl/vim are
>>> standard tools in most Linux installs.
>>
>> I'd argue the entire Linux install is a free, extra install. ;-)
>
> Of course you would, coming from a Windows background.  You'd probably
> also call it 'unnecessary'. ;)

That was a joke. I actually read the source code of Unix V7 when it was new, 
long before Windows was a chocolate bar in Gate's back pocket. I don't come 
from a Windows background. I come from a microcomputer and mainframe 
background. I just know more about Windows internals than most Linux fans.

> Point is, on most *nix systems, those are standard tools, not an
> additional download.

And that's about as important as pointing out that Windows can uninstall 
TCP/IP or that Windows reboots thrice instead of twice during the OS install.

-- 
Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
   How come I never get only one kudo?

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On 10/8/2011 17:32, Orchid XP v8 wrote:
> On 08/10/2011 08:38 PM, Darren New wrote:
>> On 10/8/2011 2:41, Orchid XP v8 wrote:
>>> I bought some hardware that lets me remotely connect to my
>>> grandparent's PC.
>>
>> Why do you need that? All that sort of thing is built into Windows.
>
> Really? So how do I create an encrypted video connection to the target
> machine, while at the same time preventing anybody else from doing the same?

Have your target go to the help center and send you an email for "remote 
assistance", and have them tell you the password over the phone. (You might 
have to have them turn on "cp->system->remote->allow remote assistance" if 
they've turned it off.)

If you have a non-"home" version of Windows, set up Remote Desktop, which is 
in controlpanel->system->remote settings->remote->allow remote desktop. Of 
course, once they've done the former, you can remote in and do the latter 
for them.

HTH!

-- 
Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
   How come I never get only one kudo?

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On 10/8/2011 18:06, Orchid XP v8 wrote:
> So, just because it does strong authentication, you think that means the
> actual data is encrypted?

You're sitting in front of a machine hooked to both Microsoft's online 
documentation and google, you know.

-- 
Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
   How come I never get only one kudo?

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On 10/8/2011 18:00, Jim Henderson wrote:
> Well, Andy wants to compare modern Linux distributions with a 10-year old
> version of Windows.<shrug>

Sure. I was just offering a counterpoint. Windows and Linux both come on one 
DVD. (I don't know if both 32 and 64 Windows come on the same DVD. I've just 
seen directory listings.) Linux without apps fits on a CD. Windows without 
apps doesn't.

> Yes, I certainly do.  Software documentation of most kinds absolutely
> sucks rocks these days.  It tends to focus on what the software does
> rather than how to do it or why you'd want to use it the way they
> designed it.

Or even in enough completeness you could use it. I remember learning APL 
from the APL interpreter manual that came with the computer. How cool is 
that? I learned UNIX by sitting down and reading thru the tome of man pages.

-- 
Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
   How come I never get only one kudo?

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On 10/8/2011 18:08, Jim Henderson wrote:
> Then we agree there.

I think we agree on this whole message. Nuff said. :-)

> Sure.  But there are ways of dealing with that, too.  Most computers have
> USB ports these days, so a USB flash drive can be used (in fact, I did my
> upgrade from oS 11.4 to 12.1 beta 1 using a flash drive.)

Sure. But you're not going to upgrade a proprietary for-fee OS like Windows 
from a flash drive. I'm not saying Linux is bad or anything. I'm just 
pointing out *why* it is different, which sadly many people fail (or refuse) 
to notice.

-- 
Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
   How come I never get only one kudo?

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On 10/8/2011 18:05, Jim Henderson wrote:
> I didn't know I could install Adobe Acrobat, Flash, or other third party
> software from Windows Update. ;)

You can, if it passes Microsoft certification requirements. I saw 
instructions somewhere for setting it up with Microsoft.

> (That's actually what I was talking about - not about driver installs)

And device drivers aren't third party software? Some of the DRM plug-ins are 
similar as well.

>>> Getting the software makers to agree might take some work,
>>
>> And that is the problem. That, and commercial entities don't really want
>> their software in Windows Update where people could install it without
>> paying for it. The model really only works for free software.
>
> The software in question I'm talking about is available gratis as it is.
> Like Flash, Acrobat Reader, Java, etc.

Sure. But people giving away free software want to be in your face about it, 
not as a silent background install. There's a reason that Adobe plasters 
their icon on your desktop on every update regardless of the fact you never 
start it without a file.

>>> but then again, Adobe has Acrobat Reader in most distributions'
>>> official repositories.
>>
>> Probably because Adobe doesn't have to deal with it. They just have to
>> give permission.
>
> So why not something like that for Windows, too?

Sure. Feel free. Go ahead. :-)  The point is that it costs Microsoft real 
money to provide that service, and people generally don't want to use that, 
because Microsoft controls it too much.  Commercial entities don't like 
that, but they'll put up with it if that's the only way to get their free 
software in front of their target audience.

If you want to start your own Windows repository for free software, go right 
ahead. I suggest you talk to google about how they work their updates, 
because it saves a lot of bandwidth.

-- 
Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
   How come I never get only one kudo?

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On 10/8/2011 18:03, Jim Henderson wrote:
> On Sat, 08 Oct 2011 18:00:56 -0700, Darren New wrote:
>
>> On 10/8/2011 14:38, Jim Henderson wrote:
>>> Configuration files don't autogenerate other configuration programs.
>>
>> Autoconf? :-)
>
> Autoconf isn't really a configuration file.  It's a configuration file
> parser. ;)

Hey, it's all binary blobs anyway, right? ;-)

> Though I find that the state of Linux GUIs is improving.  Certainly has
> since I started using it.

Oh, tremendously. But they're still a PITA compared to Windows' explorer, 
methinks.

-- 
Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
   How come I never get only one kudo?

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On Sat, 08 Oct 2011 19:02:28 -0700, Darren New wrote:

> On 10/8/2011 14:45, Jim Henderson wrote:
>> On Sat, 08 Oct 2011 09:48:10 -0700, Darren New wrote:
>>
>>> On 10/7/2011 21:47, Jim Henderson wrote:
>>>> Well, no, it's more about advanced usage.  And CLI in Windows these
>>>> days is also for advanced users.
>>>
>>> And for anything above the level of really simple BAT files, you're
>>> better off using wsh, which is much closer to bash than cmd.exe.
>>
>> And a relatively recent development, no?
> 
> """
> Windows Script Host is distributed and installed by default on Windows
> 98 and later versions of Windows. It is also installed if Internet
> Explorer 5 (or a later version) is installed. Beginning with Windows
> 2000, the Windows Script Host became available for use with user login
> scripts. """
> 
> No.

Shows how long it's been since I looked into this. :)

>>>> Like you said, it's an extra install.  sed/grep/awk/perl/vim are
>>>> standard tools in most Linux installs.
>>>
>>> I'd argue the entire Linux install is a free, extra install. ;-)
>>
>> Of course you would, coming from a Windows background.  You'd probably
>> also call it 'unnecessary'. ;)
> 
> That was a joke. I actually read the source code of Unix V7 when it was
> new, long before Windows was a chocolate bar in Gate's back pocket. I
> don't come from a Windows background. I come from a microcomputer and
> mainframe background. I just know more about Windows internals than most
> Linux fans.

Yeah, I knew it was a joke, that's why I winked. ;)

Jim

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On Sat, 08 Oct 2011 18:58:24 -0700, Darren New wrote:

> On 10/8/2011 14:44, Jim Henderson wrote:
>> Windows Server 2000 as a domain controller.  If you lose your
>> administrator password, you're hosed.  You're reinstalling.
> 
> Um, that's a good thing, you know. You're not supposed to recover from
> that.
> 
> My laptop has an encrypted drive. If I forget my password, I can't get
> to it. That's not a flaw, that's a design goal.

One that Microsoft reversed in Server 2003, IIRC.

>> Half the Windows machines wouldn't boot.  All the *nix and NetWare
>> machines (and AS/400s et al) booted more or less without any issue at
>> all.
> 
> Never had that problem, myself.
> 
> On the other hand, I have had the power go out without warning 20
> minutes into a 30-minute compile on a mainframe. When the power came
> back, the compile finished in 10 minutes. Something you won't see Linux
> *or* Windows doing.

Well, I think you probably would - some of the compiled code would 
already be in object form, and the compiler wouldn't have to compile it 
again.

>> It's an inconvenience.  An annoyance.
> 
> No it's not. Why would it be?

I already explained why.

>> Something that's far too often
>> required on Windows.
> 
> Not any more, really. I can't remember the last time an upgrade asked me
> to reboot.

Last time I applied a service pack to Windows 7, it required a reboot.

>> Sorry, *that's* not troubleshooting.  That's problem avoidance.
> 
> True. But it isn't a whole let better on Linux, unless you're a
> developer. On Windows, the problem gets automatically reported back to
> the developer anyway, if you set it up that way. :-)

Same thing happens on some Linux distributions - GNOME's bug-buddy will 
report things back to the developer if it's set up properly.

I think (but as I don't use it, I don't know) KDE does as well.

The thing is that on Linux, if you have a problem and report it, there's 
a far better chance it'll be fixed quickly.

>> Relatively recent being "in the last 10 years or so".  That's about 2-3
>> technological generations.
> 
> Sure. Just saying, it was other systems making it easier that drove
> Linux to doing this, methinks.

I'd agree with that.

>> I might as well name Windows faults based on experiences exclusively
>> with Windows 3.1.
> 
> I'm not describing faults. I'm describing "catching up with other more
> popular systems."

It's good to see Windows catching up with Linux, isn't it?  Some of the 
features in Win8 have been available in Linux for years. ;)

>>> Is it included standard in Linux? ;-)
>>
>> No, but at least one of the tools is a free tool to download and use.
> 
> Methinks you missed my joke. Earlier you were talking about dev tools on
> Windows not counting because they had to be downloaded.

Management tools are a bit different than dev tools. ;)

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