On 07/15/2011 07:33 AM, Invisible wrote:
> On 15/07/2011 11:11 AM, Warp wrote:
>
>> There's a certain amount of decency and respect that we should maintain
>> towards deceased people's remains, just as a cultural and psychological
>> thing.
>
> I think the whole thing is creepy as hell. On the other hand, what is
> considered "decent" and what counts for "respect" varies wildly by
> culture. I'm told there are places where it is traditional to eat the
> flesh of the deceased as a mark of respect, and to not do so would be a
> great dishonour. It makes no sense to me, but then I'm not from that
> culture...

Oh hey ... don't get me wrong, no disrespect intended towards any 
cultures death rituals in any way shape or form. But really since it's 
only a shell, I just have a tough time wrapping my head around all the 
fuss some of these rituals entail. LOL ... have any of you been to a 
full blown Irish wake? Not witnessed this example personally, but I've 
heard tell of propping up the open coffin in the corner whilst the rest 
proceed to get blasted. BTW: no slam intended with my choice of example 
... there just might been a drop or two of Irish blood in these old 
veins ;-)

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> Darren New<dne### [at] sanrrcom>  wrote:
>> It's a rather cool place. Go see it if you're ever in Rome. The whole place
>> is decorated with the bones of many centuries worth of dead monks.
>
>    Isn't that quite disrespectful of the dead?
>
Different cultures have different traditions, I guess.

For example, when visiting Austria, I was quite surprised by the choices 
of sculptures people used to put on tombstones.  Instead of showing the 
dead at their best, there were multitudes or old, sickly, and frail 
people, skulls with snakes crawling in and out of the bones, etc...  It 
looked like what you'd find in a cartoon depiction of Dracula's castle, 
or a death metal album cover.

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Jim Holsenback <nom### [at] nomailcom> wrote:
> On 07/15/2011 07:33 AM, Invisible wrote:
> > On 15/07/2011 11:11 AM, Warp wrote:
> >
> >> There's a certain amount of decency and respect that we should maintain
> >> towards deceased people's remains, just as a cultural and psychological
> >> thing.
> >
> > I think the whole thing is creepy as hell. On the other hand, what is
> > considered "decent" and what counts for "respect" varies wildly by
> > culture. I'm told there are places where it is traditional to eat the
> > flesh of the deceased as a mark of respect, and to not do so would be a
> > great dishonour. It makes no sense to me, but then I'm not from that
> > culture...
>
> Oh hey ... don't get me wrong, no disrespect intended towards any
> cultures death rituals in any way shape or form. But really since it's
> only a shell, I just have a tough time wrapping my head around all the
> fuss some of these rituals entail. LOL ... have any of you been to a
> full blown Irish wake? Not witnessed this example personally, but I've
> heard tell of propping up the open coffin in the corner whilst the rest
> proceed to get blasted. BTW: no slam intended with my choice of example
> ... there just might been a drop or two of Irish blood in these old
> veins ;-)

My own personal ethnic background (which is not something I focus on much at all
in terms of my own self-concept) happens to be 50% Polish in two seperate
quarters. I always hear the follwing joke at least once at every wedding or
funeral:

(SILLY ETHNIC HUMOR WARNING: If it bothers you, turn away now.)

Q: What's the difference between a Polish wedding and a Polish Funeral?
A: One less drunk.

My Irish friends tell me we stole that joke from them.

May you be in Heaven a full three rounds before the Devil knows you've eaten
your last pierogi,

Mike C.

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On 7/14/2011 22:54, Warp wrote:
> Darren New<dne### [at] sanrrcom>  wrote:
>> It's a rather cool place. Go see it if you're ever in Rome. The whole place
>> is decorated with the bones of many centuries worth of dead monks.
>
>    Isn't that quite disrespectful of the dead?

You mean as a tourist, or as someone constructing the place?

I would imagine since it's the monks doing it to other monks, they don't 
think it's disrespectful.

-- 
Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
   "Coding without comments is like
    driving without turn signals."

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On 7/15/2011 3:11, Warp wrote:
>    Now, how is using a person's bones to decorate a church any less sick?

I'd say because it's a church. There's an actual firm belief you're 
somewhere else. And the monks dedicated their lives to the church.

I think it's hard to be disrespectful if the dead person wanted you to do 
that. Is it more or less disrespectful than donating your organs for 
transplants?  The monks knew it would happen, probably asked for it, 
possibly even indicated what part of the church they wanted to be decorating 
for the rest of eternity. :-)

-- 
Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
   "Coding without comments is like
    driving without turn signals."

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On 15-7-2011 7:54, Warp wrote:
> Darren New<dne### [at] sanrrcom>  wrote:
>> It's a rather cool place. Go see it if you're ever in Rome. The whole place
>> is decorated with the bones of many centuries worth of dead monks.
>
>    Isn't that quite disrespectful of the dead?

I don't think it is. As others have remarked, different cultures have 
different ideas about these things.
I think the monks would see it in the same light as I would think about 
leaving my body to science. But even here that meets with various 
responses. Most of the staff, including the people that would prepare 
and dissect my body, think they would honour my last request, some 
however are dead against it.
In 'Stiff' that funny book by the incomparable Mary Roach, she tells 
that there is a university in Italy where they have a display of all the 
heads of the former heads of the anatomy department. That would probably 
match this example in creepiness for many here. Yet, I think it is a 
great custom, to keep the former heads 'alive'. Just as making a 
chandelier from bones of your former congregation members* keeps them 
with you all the time.
Besides, if they hadn't done that, the bones would now be gone. (One 
thing is certain however, these people did not believe in the rapture, 
as it would take some time to find your own bones. Of course they 
didn't, the concept was not invented yet, but that is another story.)

*) from the description in wiki I understand that the bones are not all 
from monks.

-- 
Apparently you can afford your own dictator for less than 10 cents per 
citizen per day.

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Invisible <voi### [at] devnull> wrote:
> On the other hand, what is 
> considered "decent" and what counts for "respect" varies wildly by 
> culture.

  That's true, but this is Italy we are talking about, not some exotic
niche culture in some isolated place. In western European societies there
are certain norms and standards with respect to deceased people's remains
(which are, in fact, largely shared by most of the rest of the world as
well), and it can be generally assumed that if these standards are not
followed, it's considered abhorrent.

-- 
                                                          - Warp

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Darren New <dne### [at] sanrrcom> wrote:
> I think it's hard to be disrespectful if the dead person wanted you to do 
> that. Is it more or less disrespectful than donating your organs for 
> transplants?  The monks knew it would happen, probably asked for it, 
> possibly even indicated what part of the church they wanted to be decorating 
> for the rest of eternity. :-)

  If I say "when I die I want my corpse to be displayed in the central square
of my town", I don't think I would get that. Some decency standards still
apply regardless of what the person himself wants.

-- 
                                                          - Warp

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Francois Labreque <fla### [at] videotronca> wrote:

> > Darren New<dne### [at] sanrrcom>  wrote:
> >> It's a rather cool place. Go see it if you're ever in Rome. The whole place
> >> is decorated with the bones of many centuries worth of dead monks.
> >
> >    Isn't that quite disrespectful of the dead?
> >
> Different cultures have different traditions, I guess.

  We are talking about Italy here, not an isolated exotic culture somewhere.

-- 
                                                          - Warp

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andrel <byt### [at] gmailcom> wrote:
> (One 
> thing is certain however, these people did not believe in the rapture, 
> as it would take some time to find your own bones. Of course they 
> didn't, the concept was not invented yet, but that is another story.)

  That's a caricature of the rapture hypothesis (although, AFAIK, even some
Christians have a similar notion, even though it doesn't make any sense;
after all, your body will turn into dust, and graves are reused after a
certain time, so after a long time there really isn't anything left to
speak of.)

-- 
                                                          - Warp

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