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For some reason, we live in a culture where it is seen as "desirable" to
not be cleaver. People who are good at football are regarded as gods,
but anybody who claims to be good at (say) trigonometry is regarded as a
pathetic failure of a human being.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/7435023.stm
The article focuses specifically on maths, but it seems generally
"fashionable" to be bad at anything that looks "technical". Maths,
science, computing, etc.
Some of the comments submitted are interesting too. My particular favourite:
"I have always liked maths, but I remember that at school, being good at
maths was a sever issue. Those who made any effort towards being good at
maths and science were ostracized by the rest of the year group."
Yes... this is my life...
Everybody hated me for being the "teacher's pet". Just because *they*
were a bunch of thick idiots... :-P
"I am certain that this was because of the portrayal of 'nerds' in
mainstream children s TV and film. When every day, kids are watching
hours of nerds being beaten up, hated and generally victimized- you can
only expect the same to happen in schools, and hence many children will
make a conscious effort NOT to be good at it."
Seems pretty solid logic to me.
So the question arrises... why does the media always portray technically
talented people as freaks and weirdos? And why does it constantly
reinforce the idea that mathematics is "hard", and that only "geniuses"
can comprehend it? Where did all this come from?
--
http://blog.orphi.me.uk/
http://www.zazzle.com/MathematicalOrchid*
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> For some reason, we live in a culture where it is seen as "desirable" to
> not be cleaver.
Interestingly enough, I was talking to some of my colleagues about this
exact subject and how it is different in Japan compared to the UK. In
Japan, it is usual for pupils to compare how much work they'd done the night
before for school, more definitely being seen as "cooler" and "better". I
said that if you boasted about how much work you'd done at a school in the
UK you'd likely get beaten up by a group of bullies at lunchtime!
I blame the parents!
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scott wrote:
>> For some reason, we live in a culture where it is seen as "desirable"
>> to not be cleaver.
>
> Interestingly enough, I was talking to some of my colleagues about this
> exact subject and how it is different in Japan compared to the UK. In
> Japan, it is usual for pupils to compare how much work they'd done the
> night before for school, more definitely being seen as "cooler" and
> "better". I said that if you boasted about how much work you'd done at
> a school in the UK you'd likely get beaten up by a group of bullies at
> lunchtime!
Exactly.
Although Japan does strike me as a very... serious sociaty. They take
business extremely seriously, even obsessing over tiny details that
realistically have no significant impact.
Not that I've met too many Japanise people personally - it might just be
stereotyped.
> I blame the parents!
Everyone always blames the parents.
As I said, I blame the endless cartoons where the cleaver people are
always the evil villans or the hopeless geeks who get beat up all day...
--
http://blog.orphi.me.uk/
http://www.zazzle.com/MathematicalOrchid*
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The best revenge is to do well. Seriously, I was also the kid who was
picked last in gym class for all the team sports because I absolutely
sucked at all of them. I had maybe 4 friends through high school, a few
more in college (though I've only heard from 3 or 4 since leaving school,
and not very often at that)
Even at the various jobs I've worked, I've generally been regarded (until
the last 5 years, really) as someone that if they could avoid interacting
with, that was a good thing. My boss at my last job (> 5 years ago) and
a few of my teammates I'd go out for a beer with after work. But users
(> 95% of the company)? Generally the less they saw of me, the better -
so they seemed to think.
I look back at some of the kids I went to high school with and see where
they are - and while a few have done well for themselves, most seem to be
stuck in some sort of dead-end job that doesn't look to pay all that well.
You have the skills and the talent to leave them in the dust. Do it, and
never look back.
Jim
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> As I said, I blame the endless cartoons where the cleaver people are
> always the evil villans or the hopeless geeks who get beat up all day...
Maybe the bullies beat them up using cleavers? ;-)
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Jim Henderson wrote:
> The best revenge is to do well.
Yeah well... that's not always possible.
> Seriously, I was also the kid who was
> picked last in gym class for all the team sports because I absolutely
> sucked at all of them. I had maybe 4 friends through high school, a few
> more in college (though I've only heard from 3 or 4 since leaving school,
> and not very often at that)
Then you have 4 more than me.
> Even at the various jobs I've worked, I've generally been regarded (until
> the last 5 years, really) as someone that if they could avoid interacting
> with, that was a good thing.
Nice to know that it's only kids, eh? :-S
> I look back at some of the kids I went to high school with and see where
> they are - and while a few have done well for themselves, most seem to be
> stuck in some sort of dead-end job that doesn't look to pay all that well.
Hmm... sounds rather like... MY JOB!
> You have the skills and the talent to leave them in the dust. Do it, and
> never look back.
Heh. If only...
--
http://blog.orphi.me.uk/
http://www.zazzle.com/MathematicalOrchid*
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On Fri, 04 Jul 2008 10:46:04 +0100, Invisible wrote:
> scott wrote:
>>> For some reason, we live in a culture where it is seen as "desirable"
>>> to not be cleaver.
>>
>> Interestingly enough, I was talking to some of my colleagues about this
>> exact subject and how it is different in Japan compared to the UK. In
>> Japan, it is usual for pupils to compare how much work they'd done the
>> night before for school, more definitely being seen as "cooler" and
>> "better". I said that if you boasted about how much work you'd done at
>> a school in the UK you'd likely get beaten up by a group of bullies at
>> lunchtime!
>
> Exactly.
>
> Although Japan does strike me as a very... serious sociaty. They take
> business extremely seriously, even obsessing over tiny details that
> realistically have no significant impact.
>
> Not that I've met too many Japanise people personally - it might just be
> stereotyped.
To an extent, it is. My brother lives in Osaka and is married to a
Japanese womanm, and in talking with her family at the wedding (mostly
through translators as very few of them speak any English at all). There
seem to be two major groups of people in Japanese society from what I've
seen - there's the traditionalists, like Yoshimi's parents, where the
gender roles are very rigidly defined; attitudes are very stoic in
general and things seem to usually be very formal. The younger
generation is less formal (if they can get away with it), but some things
(like management of household money) is in the hands of the wife to the
point that the husband doesn't have any idea where the family stands
financially. Steve explained to me that the reason for this is because
that way, the husband is incented to continue to work hard; it drives the
work ethic.
After spending a week with her family here in the US, I found myself
bowing to people as I talked to them - my wife had to point out to me
that I was doing this little Japanese-style bow to some people who were
helping us out with directions at the hotel as I was thanking them.
Steve's brother-in-law is a truck driver. He knows a bit of English
(spent some time in the UK several years ago, which is where he
learned). I found him to be much less formal than his parents, and very
personable. I've only had a couple of interactions with people in Japan
on a business level, but my brother has had more since he works over
there. In fact, he commented to me that the teacher evaluations he
receives from his students and their parents (he teaches ESL over there),
some of the details he's evaluated are are really quite asinine - like
whether or not he wore a tie while teaching - just little stuff like that.
He also had to deal with the legal system over there - former employer
didn't want to pay him, so accused him of being a drug user. Nasty
business; got it resolved fairly well, though I don't think he ever got
paid.
>> I blame the parents!
>
> Everyone always blames the parents.
>
> As I said, I blame the endless cartoons where the cleaver people are
> always the evil villans or the hopeless geeks who get beat up all day...
It's not just the cartoons.
Jim
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Invisible <voi### [at] dev null> wrote:
> For some reason, we live in a culture where it is seen as "desirable" to
> not be cleaver.
I don't find that very surprising. Just make a google image search
on "cleaver". Why would anyone want to be that?
OTOH, while I wouldn't want to *be* that, I recognize that they can
be quite useful for certain things.
> http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/7435023.stm
I have noticed that many people have some kind of conscious, intentional
mind block for anything involving math. If you try to explain or induce
them to solve even the simplest of math problems, they immediately curl
into their "happy world" which has a thick wall which has a sign which
says "I'm not good at math" (which they usually also say out). It sometimes
goes so far that it kind of feels like they were intentionally protecting
themselves from learning even the simplest of math. Even if they were
completely capable of easily learning the principles to solve the simple
task, they *don't want* to do that. They completely reject the notion.
It's like they had some kind of fear or phobia, and they like to hide
behind their "I'm not good at math" defense. Any explanations or attempts
at teaching will fall to deaf ears. Heaven forbid that they ever actually
learn math!
--
- Warp
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scott <sco### [at] laptopcom> wrote:
> I
> said that if you boasted about how much work you'd done at a school in the
> UK you'd likely get beaten up by a group of bullies at lunchtime!
> I blame the parents!
I think it's just a question of primitive jealousy, which the western
culture does nothing to fix.
"He has done more than me, he thinks he is better than me. I'll teach
him a lesson."
--
- Warp
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On Fri, 04 Jul 2008 11:21:21 +0100, Invisible wrote:
> Jim Henderson wrote:
>> The best revenge is to do well.
>
> Yeah well... that's not always possible.
It is. But it doesn't happen without effort. The good fortune I've had
did not just drop into my lap; I had to work for it. The harder I've
worked, the luckier I've been. It works that way.
>> Seriously, I was also the kid who was picked last in gym class for all
>> the team sports because I absolutely sucked at all of them. I had
>> maybe 4 friends through high school, a few more in college (though I've
>> only heard from 3 or 4 since leaving school, and not very often at
>> that)
>
> Then you have 4 more than me.
Had. I can't remember the last time I heard from any of them.
>> Even at the various jobs I've worked, I've generally been regarded
>> (until the last 5 years, really) as someone that if they could avoid
>> interacting with, that was a good thing.
>
> Nice to know that it's only kids, eh? :-S
It's a people thing.
>> I look back at some of the kids I went to high school with and see
>> where they are - and while a few have done well for themselves, most
>> seem to be stuck in some sort of dead-end job that doesn't look to pay
>> all that well.
>
> Hmm... sounds rather like... MY JOB!
I don't think so. It seems like it now - it seemed like it to me when I
was where you are. I didn't think I'd ever do anything other than IT
work, couldn't see myself doing management stuff at all. I maintained my
integrity and someone noticed and offered me this job when I was about to
be laid off. I had absolutely no idea what I was doing when I started
(and some days it still feels like I don't, now almost 4 years in), but
I've found that overall, I'm actually pretty good at it.
I *never* wanted to do a job that involved dealing with people - that's
why I got into IT. Computers don't talk back, and when they act up, you
can whack them with a hammer and they don't sue you.
>> You have the skills and the talent to leave them in the dust. Do it,
>> and never look back.
>
> Heh. If only...
Like I said, it won't fall into your lap, you have to work at it. Don't
sit back and wait for the recruiters to call you; call them. Get your
name out in front of them *regularly*.
IIRC, you're still relatively new to the workforce - it takes time to
establish yourself and your skills. You said a few months ago "who would
want to hire a programmer who didn't know C or Java?". Here's one answer:
http://www.nat.org/blog/
(May 20 entry)
"The ideal person will be a strong programmer who can tell a good bug
report from a bad one, will consider themself a whiz at scripting
(***shell, perl - whatever works for you***), and will enjoy
understanding the ins and outs of a sophisticated system." (emphasis
added)
Nat, BTW, is a VP of Linux Desktop development. While none of these jobs
may be exactly what you're looking for, my point is that these types of
positions do exist where knowing C, C++ or Java doesn't matter. Maybe
you could contribute your skills to the Mono project and fix some of the
issues with it - it runs on Windows and is based on .NET. Or maybe get
involved in Moonlight, an OSS version of Silverlight that's currently
being worked on.
There are options, but unless you seek them out, you're not going to find
them. Jobs generally don't fall out of the sky and just land in people's
laps.
Jim
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