On Fri, 4 Sep 1998 14:34:54 +0200, Johannes Hubert <jhu### [at] algonetse> wrote:
>Nieminen Mika wrote in message <35efc03b.0@news.povray.org>...
>>Rik Ling <rli### [at] pipcomcom> wrote:
>>: Have you considered (yikes!) Java?
>>
>>  I think that Java is not an option nowadays, because:
>>
>>  a) Java is slow.
>[snip]
>That may be so, under the the circumstances you describe. But the original
>poster seriously considers using Tcl/Tk and that is an interpreted language,
>not like Java, where precompiled bytecode is running through a virtual
>machine...

Not to get in a religious war or anything, but Tk doesn't have to be used with
Tcl.  It can also be used with Perl, which is compiled bytecode running through
a virtual machine.  You can probably even use Tk with that weird caffeine-cult 
solution-in-search-of-a-problem.

Post a reply to this message

Johannes Hubert <jhu### [at] algonetse> wrote:
:>you need a web browser to run java (this adds slowness to the whole thing).

: And this is where you go wrong. You are speaking about Java applets. But a
: GUI for POV-Ray would not be realized as an applet but as a Java
: application. This runs directly in the Java virtual machine, not in a
: browser. So you only need to get a compatible virtual machine.
: My best guess there would be either the Microsoft VM of IE4.0 or Sun's VMs
: which exist for many platforms. And if need be you could install just the VM
: you need...

  Ok, I was wrong about that. This misunderstanding may be caused by the
fact, that I have never seen on heard about those kind of programs. I
recognize my ignorance.
  It's however discouraging that I have never seen that Java VM although
I use a sparc almost dayly.

-- 
                                                           - Warp. -

Post a reply to this message

Ron Parker <par### [at] my-dejanewscom> wrote:
: Have you considered the possibility that only one or two members of the POV-Team
: are actually working on the Windows port at any given time?

  Ok, if this is the case, I apologize. I didn't think very much what I wrote.
I wrote without better knowledge.
  It's just that the loss of the povhelp program (yes, I really liked it) hurt
me... :)
  I think I'll never really forgive them about that...

-- 
                                                           - Warp. -

Post a reply to this message

Perhaps there appears to be more work done on the windows GUI of POV because
this is proportional to the number of users that have this OS...  It seems
to make sense to spend reasonably more time working on the most popular
format..


Matt

Post a reply to this message

Nieminen Mika wrote in message <35f00712.0@news.povray.org>...
[snip]
>  It's however discouraging that I have never seen that Java VM although
>I use a sparc almost dayly.

That's because the VM is not really something "visible". It's more like the
Perl interpreter/compiler for example, the platform some other app runs on:
You start "Perl.exe myscript.pl" to execute myscript. Just like this you
start "Java.exe myapp.class" to start the java-application myapp. (Or
"jview.exe myapp.class" if you are using Microsoft's VM).

But as you wrote yourself earlier: The newer browsers all have a VM
installed, which is used to run applets. So if you have one of these
browsers, you have a VM too, even on your Sparc.
You had this right in your post, I only wanted to point out that Java
applications can be run without a browser, with the pure VM (and the
classfiles/packages of course).
Hasn't Corel developed a Java version of their WordPerfect suite (or did
they drop it)?
This would be an example of such an application and wouldn't run in a
browser either, but directly in the VM.

Greetings,
Johannes.

Post a reply to this message

In article <m36### [at] rpc66acratrcojp> , mas### [at] acratrcojp (Roland Mas)
wrote:

>  My point was not to blame anybody (and I'm genuinely sorry if I hurt
>your feelings) but to propose concrete things. I know of course that
>Windows 95 is not the only supported platform, I know that there are
>Mac users, and OS/2 users, and Unix users, and so on. The real point
>is: why continue developing one interface for each of these platforms,
>instead of writing one that is portable? This is just an idea, of
>course. But if I add that I personnally intend to develop at least one
>of the two interfaces I described before, what wrong is there?

Hmm, there is no (unsolvable) technichal problem, yes, but be assured of one fact: A
Mac user, for example, would never use a GUI made in the Windows style. What i am
refering to are menu names, dialog layout, shortcut keys, etc. There has been such a
protest when Microsoft made Word 6 for the Mac because all this was exactly like the
Windows one. People continued using the old 5.1 Word simply for this (and a few other
bugs) reason!
So basically this would end up in some kind of GUI philosophy war because Mac users
are used to do thinks in a different manner than WinDOS users are. And the same goes
for the Unix ports etc.


Thorsten


____________________________________________________
Thorsten Froehlich, Duisburg, Germany

Post a reply to this message

I doubt whether a single GUI would be desirable, because of the different
look and feel expected on the different platforms. I advocate a per system
interface, applying the full strength of the platform/OS. But, I admit I am
a Win95 user, and therefore biased.

As far as Java is concerned, a program with the functions now performed by
for example, the GUI for Windows 95: a multiple document editor and a
manager for some settings which can be exported in the form of an ASCII
(.ini) file are well within the scope of a Java application, and it would
run with a satisfactory speed on most machines. Many features are ready
available in the form of 'JavaBeans' (the Java equivalent of (say) ActiveX
controls). As to the control of the render engine, this could be
accomplished trough the JNI (Java Native Interface), kicking the native code
of the render engine.

And forgive me I say it once again: JAVA IS MUCH MORE THAN APPLETS. It is a
full fledged programming language, very similar to C++, with the magnificent
exception of pointer arithmetic, and in that respect much more safe.

Frans

Post a reply to this message

Roland, you have a good idea!

Pay no attention to the hecklers out there.

I would vote strongly in favor of Python.  Nobody likes TCL anymore.
Even the inventor of TCL doesn't seem to be so keen on it.   Visit
http://cito.uwaterloo.ca/~papresco/tcl/ for more on  that.   Enough
Religion...


Some people who use a particular platform are really fanatical about
everything running on that platform conforming to that platform's
conventions.   So they don't care about a portable GUI.  Let them enjoy
their stuff.

Some people hop between computers of different types, and are really
fanatical about common cross-platform GUIs that are consistent no matter
what hardware is running it.  They would be glad to have a portable
Python front end to POV-Ray.   Heck, I'd even pay for one!  

Before embarking on a long project involving Python and Tk (through
Tkinter, Trinket, or whatever) you might want to play with Grail, the
web browser written in  Python.  It's slow.  Its designers aren't sure
whether to blame Python, Tk or substandard protocol handling. Beware.

There's also a GUI toolbox called gtk used in GIMP, and it too has a
Python interface.  I'm going to play with it "soon"....

Anyway, a portable GUI front end for POV-Ray is a *good* idea, and I'll
be glad to help.

Further pursuit of this probably belong in povray.programming
-- 

Daren Scot Wilson
Member, ACM
dar### [at] pipelinecom
www.newcolor.com
--
If you enjoyed this e-mail, please deposit a dime!

Post a reply to this message

On Fri, 4 Sep 1998 16:55:15 +0100, "Matthew Bennett"
<ben### [at] btinternetcom> wrote:

>Perhaps there appears to be more work done on the windows GUI of POV because
>this is proportional to the number of users that have this OS...  It seems
>to make sense to spend reasonably more time working on the most popular
>format..
>
>
>Matt
>

I believe the truth is a combination of your statement, and Ron
Parker's earlier statement. Chris Cason is the main author of the
Windows GUI for POV, just look at the Windows splash screen for a good
hint about that. Some have suggested that the POV team spent more time
or effort on Windows, but I don't think that is the case, for the same
reasons Ron Parker already explained.

As for why it might *seem* that way sometimes, I agree with Matthew's
statement above. Windows is a *very* common OS.  It's only natural to
have a lot of traffic posted concerning the windows version of POV. I
hope that no one thinks for a moment that the POV-Team is playing
"favorites" with any one OS. In fact, I think they have been extremely
cross-platform oriented in their approach. I have always admired that.

As for user stats, I can't speak for the POV-Team, but I can mention
that the Internet Movie Project has a large contingent of Windows
users.  Of all the OS's represented in The Internet Movie Project,
Windows is the most common. That is, if you ignore the ability to run
Windows in DOS mode.   :)    Perhaps I should have said "Win-DOS" is
the most common...

Later,

Glen Berry

Vice Project Coordinator
The Internet Movie Project (IMP)
Homepage: http://www.algonet.se/~jhubert/MovieProject/index.html

To reply via personal email, remove the "X" from Xno### [at] ezwvcom

Post a reply to this message

Since the idea of a cross-platform GUI has been mentioned, I thought I
would mention the idea of using a portable C++ library to achieve the
goal.  I'm not a cross-platform expert by any means, but it seems like
a decent idea to me. There are multiple cross-platform GUI
environments to pick from. Does anyone here know anything about
"wxWindows"? Here is the URL of their website for anyone interested:

    http://web.ukonline.co.uk/julian.smart/wxwin/

I am basically just curious whether anyone thinks that something like
this would be useful to a project like POV? Or if not POV, then
perhaps it would be useful for an external modeler program?

Thanks,
G. Berry

To reply via personal email, remove the "X" from Xno### [at] ezwvcom

Post a reply to this message