"Nicolas Alvarez" <nic### [at] gmailcom> wrote in message 
news:497b5b23@news.povray.org...
> clipka wrote:
>> It's a "Hall of Fame" after all, right? So I think it shouldn't matter
>> *what* they're famous for: Technical "strength", artistic beauty, or
>> whatever.
>>
>> I'm definitely somewhat biased towards the technical side (because it's
>> just the kind of stuff I love), but with that in mind, I'd actually
>> advocate to put more emphasis on beauty and concept than I usually do
>> myself :)
>
> Well, I'd say the less the author had to rely on *other tools* the more
> appropriate for POV-Ray HOF...

   Yes, but times have moved on now...

    Perhaps the thing to do is split it.

    o- PoV only HOF. (Total CSG and render).

    o- PoV/other/HOF. (Use of other tool and render).

     ~Steve~

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"Carlo C." <nomail@nomail> wrote:
> "Kenneth" <kdw### [at] earthlinknet> wrote:
>>
> > Also, don't forget "The Tiffany Cheerio"...gorgeous.
> > KW
>
> Ive writes: "...Surely I prefer the b/w version..."
> To meet the tastes of the author. ;-)
>

Oh!  Well, what do the mere artists themselves know, anyway?  Let the masses
decide!! Mob rule!! Democracy in action!! :-P

KW

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St. wrote:
> "Nicolas Alvarez" <nic### [at] gmailcom> wrote
>>
>> Well, I'd say the less the author had to rely on *other tools* the more
>> appropriate for POV-Ray HOF...
> 
>    Yes, but times have moved on now...
> 
>     Perhaps the thing to do is split it.
> 
>     o- PoV only HOF. (Total CSG and render).
> 
>     o- PoV/other/HOF. (Use of other tool and render).

I didn't say other tools shouldn't be used at all. But somebody who created
a texture in a graphic program, a mesh in a 3D modeller, and put the model
with the texture as an image_map in a povray scene, doesn't seem worth
putting in povray HOF, even if with only those two elements the image looks
awesome.

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Nicolas Alvarez <nic### [at] gmailcom> wrote:
> I didn't say other tools shouldn't be used at all. But somebody who created
> a texture in a graphic program, a mesh in a 3D modeller, and put the model
> with the texture as an image_map in a povray scene, doesn't seem worth
> putting in povray HOF, even if with only those two elements the image looks
> awesome.

Why not?

- If the main purpose of the HOF is to show off what can be achieved with POV,
then there's nothing wrong with it: After all, rendering textured 3D meshes
*is* something you can do with POV - and actually quite an important one, given
today's reality of 3D art.

- If the main purpose of the HOF is to show pearls produced by the POV
community, then there's nothing wrong with it either: After all, they *are*
created by the POV community, so if they *are* pearls, then the HOF is the
right place for them.

- What about showing off tools rooted in the POV community, like PoseRay? Even
if a scene might not have a single line of manually-written SDL code (or
*especially* then), it might show off the power of a Poser->PoseRay->POV-Ray
toolchain.

I think the HOF should reflect a cross-section of (impressive) works from the
POV community. If this community also does impressive shots of imported
textured meshes, then this should also reflect in the HOF.

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"Nicolas Alvarez" <nic### [at] gmailcom> wrote in message 
news:497bc2e8@news.povray.org...
> St. wrote:
>> "Nicolas Alvarez" <nic### [at] gmailcom> wrote
>>>
>>> Well, I'd say the less the author had to rely on *other tools* the more
>>> appropriate for POV-Ray HOF...
>>
>>    Yes, but times have moved on now...
>>
>>     Perhaps the thing to do is split it.
>>
>>     o- PoV only HOF. (Total CSG and render).
>>
>>     o- PoV/other/HOF. (Use of other tool and render).
>
> I didn't say other tools shouldn't be used at all. But somebody who 
> created
> a texture in a graphic program, a mesh in a 3D modeller, and put the model
> with the texture as an image_map in a povray scene, doesn't seem worth
> putting in povray HOF, even if with only those two elements the image 
> looks
> awesome.
>

     The problem is that a lot of users (like myself) are limited to what 
they can do with POV. Sure, I can probably create a neat scene in pure SDL 
with the use of primitives and/or others, but I sure couldn't complete a 
great landscape scene with all the 'needed' objects that go with it. Some 
can do that, and some simply cannot. So I think there has to be some degree 
of fairness across the board when it comes to the HOF and should really 
focus on the 'end goal' - the final render.

   I think the HOF is very important, and if it was me, I would have all of 
those proposals added, and more.

    ~Steve~

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"Nicolas Alvarez" <nic### [at] gmailcom> schreef in bericht 
news:497bc2e8@news.povray.org...
> St. wrote:
>> "Nicolas Alvarez" <nic### [at] gmailcom> wrote
>>>
>>> Well, I'd say the less the author had to rely on *other tools* the more
>>> appropriate for POV-Ray HOF...
>>
>>    Yes, but times have moved on now...
>>
>>     Perhaps the thing to do is split it.
>>
>>     o- PoV only HOF. (Total CSG and render).
>>
>>     o- PoV/other/HOF. (Use of other tool and render).
>
> I didn't say other tools shouldn't be used at all. But somebody who 
> created
> a texture in a graphic program, a mesh in a 3D modeller, and put the model
> with the texture as an image_map in a povray scene, doesn't seem worth
> putting in povray HOF, even if with only those two elements the image 
> looks
> awesome.
>

Like Steve said: Times have moved on. We do not need anymore to rely solely 
on POV-Ray to create great scenes. Meshes, which I consider the greatest 
step forward since the creation of CSG, are much better created in other 
applications. Maybe some complex things are fun to be made in CSG, but if a 
version version renders a hundredfold faster, then the choice is clear. 
Consider for example Gilles Tran's MakeTree macro. An excellent piece of 
work, still very useful for single trees. But a forest? Just forget it. With 
an application like POV-Tree (and others), the macro has become obsolete (As 
Gilles says himself). And I could cite many other examples. So where would 
the limit be for images to be considered worth their inclusion into HOF?

HOF, is/should be, in my perception, the showcase of what can be achieved - 
technically and artistically - with different *tools* centered around 
POV-Ray as the principal and sole renderer, the hub as it were of the whole 
creative process by the artist. This excludes automatically any rendered 
image achieved inside Poser or inside Blender, or inside whatever other 
renderer is available in the outside world.

Thomas

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"Thomas de Groot" <tDOTdegroot@interDOTnlANOTHERDOTnet> wrote:
> HOF, is/should be, in my perception, the showcase of what can be achieved -
> technically and artistically - with different *tools* centered around
> POV-Ray as the principal and sole renderer, the hub as it were of the whole
> creative process by the artist. This excludes automatically any rendered
> image achieved inside Poser or inside Blender, or inside whatever other
> renderer is available in the outside world.

Very well put.

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"clipka" <nomail@nomail> schreef in bericht 
news:web.497c5bd6c722a95a3c6235530@news.povray.org...
> "Thomas de Groot" <tDOTdegroot@interDOTnlANOTHERDOTnet> wrote:
>> HOF, is/should be, in my perception, the showcase of what can be 
>> achieved -
>> technically and artistically - with different *tools* centered around
>> POV-Ray as the principal and sole renderer, the hub as it were of the 
>> whole
>> creative process by the artist. This excludes automatically any rendered
>> image achieved inside Poser or inside Blender, or inside whatever other
>> renderer is available in the outside world.
>
> Very well put.
>

Thanks. I think we need at least a framework or a good definition before 
going on.

Thomas

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2, 5, 7, 12, 15

(or all of them.)

Regarding the criteria discussion:

it is simple... "you gotta 'WOW' people."

You want people to say "WOW" when they first see the image.

If the image then remains in the memory, that's the best.

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Thomas de Groot wrote:
> Like Steve said: Times have moved on. We do not need anymore to rely
> solely on POV-Ray to create great scenes. Meshes, which I consider the
> greatest step forward since the creation of CSG, are much better created
> in other applications. Maybe some complex things are fun to be made in
> CSG, but if a version version renders a hundredfold faster, then the
> choice is clear. Consider for example Gilles Tran's MakeTree macro. An
> excellent piece of work, still very useful for single trees. But a forest?
> Just forget it. With an application like POV-Tree (and others), the macro
> has become obsolete (As Gilles says himself). And I could cite many other
> examples. So where would the limit be for images to be considered worth
> their inclusion into HOF?

... I don't know if what I say is hard to understand or I'm being *ignored*

I just said there's nothing wrong with using other tools, definitely nothing
wrong with using meshes in your scene. But I wouldn't "vote" for a scene
that was made *entirely* in other programs and fed to POV-Ray, using it as
just a raytracer; because it's *not* just a raytracer.

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