Gilles Tran wrote:

>  AFAIK, the
> current workaround is still to use one of the few Mac apps that exports to Povray's
> regular mesh (Amapi does it, I don't know about others).

Hello Gilles, thanks for answering. I think that Amapi only exports the geometry and
not
UV-textures, thats at least the case with the free 4.15 version.

> Now, in the specific case of Poser, I guess that someone with a good understanding
of
> both the obj files exported by Poser and the mesh2 format could write a converter in
> POV script. Not the most efficient solution though.

Are you really sure about that?
Warp said opposite, in a rather forceful way that felt pretty intimidating.
According to him, it seemed like no one of us needed any converters,
and that I was more or less an idiot for believing so. And Ken have
expressed similar sentiments.

This is confusing.

Thanks anyway Gilles. I love your stories and pictures!
Tom

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Tom Stone wrote:
> 
> Gilles Tran wrote:
> 
> Are you really sure about that?
> Warp said opposite, in a rather forceful way that felt pretty intimidating.
> According to him, it seemed like no one of us needed any converters,
> and that I was more or less an idiot for believing so. And Ken have
> expressed similar sentiments.

No, you didn't understand Warp (or Ken). Gilles is right.


Another way to explain things:

mesh2 is a POV object. Anybody can use a POV object. Take
your editor, write the text file, that's it. bicubic_patch
and mesh also are objects. Go use them.

But... mesh, mesh2 and bicubic_patch are sooo tedious to
code by hand. Just an infinite list of numbers. Almost no
human could write them by hand. At least not a useful number
of them.

So... you need a program to write them! Programs do "dumb"
things quickly, and generating several thousands of meshes
and bicubic_patch values is their job.

Now... how will the program create the objects? The program
can't "guess" them. It can use an algorithm to create
them: Someone could create a program that takes a point and
a radius as a parameter and outputs a pseudo-sphere made of
thousands of triangles. That's what most modelers do, indeed.

Or... The program could read a Poser object, decode it, and
write thousands of meshes to represent the object. That's a
converter.

Warp... has done a POV script that outputs mesh2 objects.
I have not looked at it, so I don't know what it uses as
input. But clearly, from what Warp and Gilles wrote, Warp's
script doesn't read Poser objects (or whatever objects).

So... you still need a converter from Whatever(tm) Object
format to POV mesh2 objects. That's your personal need.
But other people (like Warp) have personal uses of mesh2
that differ from yours. And those personal uses can work
on many platforms, as Warp's script do.

BTW: You might have misunderstood, in the previous messages,
some informations about the converters. Basically, every
Mac application programmer was waiting for a definitive
POV version before offering to output "mesh2" objects. Once
the beta is over, it is likely that software packages like
Poser will support it (if not, ask them).


Hope this finally clears things out.

-- 
Adrien Beau - adr### [at] freefr - http://adrien.beau.free.fr
 Mes propos n'engagent que moi et en aucun cas mes employeurs

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smellenbergh wrote:

> If code (C or C++) for such converters is available it shouldn't be too
> hard to port it for Mac users. So, if anyone knows of free converter
> code, we might have a look at it.

Thomas Baier has the source code for 3dto3d available for download.
http://www.stmuc.com/thbaier/download.html
but I don't understand exactly if it's free.

FlyerFX has a free specific obj (Poser) to Povray utility.
http://people.tamu.edu/~sfg2113/poserayhelp.htm
No source given but if someone ask him kindly...

G.
--

**********************
http://www.oyonale.com
**********************
Graphic experiments
Pov-ray gallery

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smellenbergh wrote:

> If code (C or C++) for such converters is available it shouldn't be too
> hard to port it for Mac users. So, if anyone knows of free converter
> code, we might have a look at it.

Hi,
That sounds wonderful!

Though, you might want to know that I got an answer from Joe Strout today:
==========================

>However, I seem to remember that you wrote somewhere that you might
>possibly add support for POV-Ray's new Mesh2 format that can handle UV
>mapping. Well, the POV-team have finally released a Beta version of
>version 3.5 which can be downloaded from:
>
>http://mac.povray.org/download/beta.html

Woo!  I've been waiting for this.  I thought I was on the list to
receive an announcement when it was released, but apparently not --
this is the first I've heard of it.

>I don't know how complicated it is, but I would really want to be able
>to convert Poser.obj files to be able to use it in POV-ray,

I've got a start on a general-purpose 3D model format converter.  I
certainly would include OBJ import/export and POV-ray export.
But  I'll see if I can get something into Meshwork soon, too.

>If this is unsuitable for Meshwork, then perhaps a such converter could
>be made possible as a tutorial for RealBasic?

It's a bit too complex of a thing for a tutorial, I think.

Cheers,
- Joe
,------------------------------------------------------------------.
|    Joseph J. Strout         Check out the Mac Web Directory:     |
|    joe### [at] stroutnet           http://www.macwebdir.com/            |
`------------------------------------------------------------------'
==================================

Since Joe seems to have started the work on a converter, it might not be
necessary for you to do all this work also.
However, I guess that Joe could have use for your expert knowledge. Is it okey
if I send your email address to him?

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Tom Stone <tom### [at] teliacom> wrote:
: According to him, it seemed like no one of us needed any converters,
: and that I was more or less an idiot for believing so.

  I have never said anything like that.
  What I said is that you don't *necessarily* need an external program in
order to create a mesh2, as you can create one yourself.
  The mesh2 is not some kind of inaccessible binary encrypted file which can
only be created by sophisticated programs which mere mortals can't understand.
The mesh2 format is just a plain and easily readable ascii format which you
can write yourself by hand if you wish. It's not even very cryptic, but quite
logical. It's also absolutely platform-independent; it doesn't contain anything
that would depend on a certain system.
  Of course this doesn't mean it's easy. As meshes just contain vertex points
and a whole surface is built up with triangles using those vertex points, it's
near impossible to make anything really complex just by writing numbers by
hand.
  There are mainly three ways of creating a mesh/mesh2:

  - You just write one by hand by entering coordinates. Usually this is
limited to extremely simple shapes such as boxes because it becomes just too
difficult to do anything more complicated (forget about making a human face
by entering vertex coordinates by hand).

  - You can algorithmically generate (with POV-Ray SDL) a mesh. With this you
can do a lot more complicated things with lots of triangles. One simple example
is to create a spherical surface with thousands of triangles.
  Here you basically just write a POV-Ray script which creates the mesh using
math.

  - You can use a third-party program which has the ability of writing a
triangle mesh in POV-Ray format. What the program does is just to generate
the mesh in POV-Ray format (the exact same format which you can write by
hand) from some input (usually a mesh in another non-pov format).

-- 
#macro N(D,I)#if(I<6)cylinder{M()#local D[I]=div(D[I],104);M().5,2pigment{
rgb M()}}N(D,(D[I]>99?I:I+1))#end#end#macro M()<mod(D[I],13)-6,mod(div(D[I
],13),8)-3,10>#end blob{N(array[6]{11117333955,
7382340,3358,3900569407,970,4254934330},0)}//                     - Warp -

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Tom Stone wrote:

> According to him, it seemed like no one of us needed any converters,
> and that I was more or less an idiot for believing so. And Ken have
> expressed similar sentiments.
> 
> This is confusing.

I am sorry you feel this way. I thought I was being more than patient with
you trying to get you to understand the reality of the situation. I guess
I have failed and I don't know what else to offer you.

-- 
Ken Tyler - POV-Ray Technical Assistance Group

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Warp wrote:

>   - You can use a third-party program which has the ability of writing a
> triangle mesh in POV-Ray format.

Ah, good news again. Where can I find it?

Look Warp, I'm very grateful that you have the patience to answer me. Do not doubt
that.
However, it seems like we are constantly talking past each other. That we are
misunderstanding each other on a fundamental level. On a cognitive level, I do
understand that you're trying to help, but I still just get more frustrated and
feel more stupid.
Agreed, that's my problem, not yours.. but yet...

I suspect that we have different definitions on the word "use".
From a programmer's point of view, I guess that everything you say is correct.
Your SDL Raytracer is an excellent proof that we can "use" Mesh2. We could also,
if we all were programmers, write our own Pov-patches to use whatever fileformat
we desire. So, while a programmer can make amazing things with this format, I
still guess that the main reason for it's inclusion in the official release is to
provide a practical way for the  average user to use UV-mapped meshes. Now, I'm
perhaps claiming a too high ranking, but I consider myself to be an average user.

I'm not a programmer, so my definition of the word "use" is different. I "use"
POV-Ray to get a mental image to appear on the computer screen. If I want to make
an image of a man reading a book, then it seems practical if I can use an
UV-mapped mesh model of the man. The documentation seems to imply that I can do
that.

But can I really, as a non-programmer, "use" an UV-mapped mesh model without
buying a PC?

If the POV team has gone through all the trouble of including the Mesh2 format in
the official release, then wouldn't they get happy if as many as possible actually
can use it (including non-programmers)? If no Mac users are able to use this
feature, just because there isn't any converters, then wouldn't it increase the
chances that a developer will make one if it is obvious that a need exists?
What do the POV team gain from pretending that there isn't a need for a Mesh2
converter on the Mac platform?

Since the Faq-part of the documentation already gives links to several third-party
utilities that are platform specific (for both Mac and PC), then why not take it a
tiny step further? Like adding a small list after the FAQ with "Ideas for third
party developers". I'm sure that both Mac and PC developers would find such a list
useful.
Like, a density file is a powerful feature in POV, but I haven't seen many use it.
A df3 editor might change that, so why not say that out front?

Oh well. I've been using POV-Ray since 1996, and I love it dearly. Had I felt
nothing for the program, I wouldn't been causing trouble here and now.

Smellenbergh offered to make a Mac Mesh2 converter.
But it seems like Joe Strout have a head start.
However, it would be nice to have a Mac version of your Mesh compressor.
Perhaps you and the Smellenberghs can discuss a Mac port of it?

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Ken wrote:

>  I guess
> I have failed and I don't know what else to offer you.

Thanks Ken. This last message offered more than what you might believe.

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Gilles Tran <tra### [at] inapginrafr> wrote:

> > If code (C or C++) for such converters is available it shouldn't be too
> > hard to port it for Mac users. So, if anyone knows of free converter
> > code, we might have a look at it.
> 
> Thomas Baier has the source code for 3dto3d available for download.
> http://www.stmuc.com/thbaier/download.html
> but I don't understand exactly if it's free.
Its not free at all.
> FlyerFX has a free specific obj (Poser) to Povray utility.
> http://people.tamu.edu/~sfg2113/poserayhelp.htm
> No source given but if someone ask him kindly...
I just contacted the author. Now just waiting for a reply.

Thanks for the hints,

Yvo


-- 
e-mail:sme### [at] skynetbe

http://users.skynet.be/smellenbergh

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Tom Stone <tom### [at] teliacom> wrote:

> Since Joe seems to have started the work on a converter, it might not be
> necessary for you to do all this work also.
> However, I guess that Joe could have use for your expert knowledge. Is it okey
> if I send your email address to him?
You can always do so but I don't think we can be of much help, we know
very little about 3D file formats. 

Yvo


-- 
e-mail:sme### [at] skynetbe

http://users.skynet.be/smellenbergh

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