Bob Hughes wrote:
> 
> Figured I better go ahead and bring this up here.
> The IK Keyframing isn't able to do multiple segments in one run apparently.

I have a feeling that I'm going to need more information to really
understand the problem here.  To make sure that I both understand what's
happening (bug fix stuff), as well as what you really want to do
(features), I might need a real step by step description.

> I've managed a work around by doing separate segments where I right-click on the
> Key button before beginning the next part and choosing Delete/Scene keys.  That
> way it starts fresh where the objects left off from the previous run.

Are you trying to go from one point in time to another, yet keep an
object in it's current orientation/position?  If that's all, then hold
down the Shift key as you move the time slider.  No interpolation will
occur.  When you get to the point in time you want to start things at,
force a key (or keys) at that point.  Did I forget to add that in the
docs (it may be under the place that talks about copying keys)?

If you are just using IK in the process of building an animation, then I
really need more info.  I've had no problems playing with Lutz's robot
arm & IK to do little animations.

Xander

Post a reply to this message

Alex Wolff wrote:
> ...
> i've found out some strange behavior of your anim-plugin when doing
> interpolation between keyframes. it may have to do with the problem bob

> hughes described (although i don't understand all of what he said..).
> to reproduce, try this:
> -starting moray with the default scene (one camera, one light)
> -create a simple sphere located at the origin

> around the
>   z-axis
> -click the key-sign to activate animation
> -choose >render>options>25 fps;100frames
> -right click the key-sign>set>selected
> -choose linear interpolation
> -move slider to last frame
> -type in 720.0 degree for z-rotation (key is automatically set)
> -now move the slider and watch the z-rotation values!
> -> there is no rotation but a switch from 0 to 720 at the last frame.
> workaround:
> -set a key at frame 50 with z-rotation 360 AND
>  set a key at frame 25 with z-rotation 180
> -now it works and (that's funny) now you can delete the keys at frame 5
0
> and 25.

Unfortunately, Lutz allows values outside 0 -> 360 for rotation angles
(well, I suppose -180 -> 180 would be ok too).  Any rotation
interpolation is performed using Quaternion interpolation.  As far as
I'm concerned, 720 = 360 = 0.  The only reason that 720 stays in the
last frame is that I actually store the Moray values internally for keys
- but for interpolation, I give back to Moray the intermediate values.

Linear interpolation of the individual rotation values would probably do
what you are expecting for this particular animation.  However, if you
are interpolation rotations for something that uses more than one axis,
you will get really rotten results doing things that way.  That's why I
use Quaternions internally for all rotation values.

The amazing thing is that following your steps you get anything useful
at all.  If you ask for an interpolation from 0 -> 360, I could
legitimately do nothing - the position is the same.

I don't think I'll change the way I'm doing things in the foreseeable
future - I realize it makes for extra work in some circumstances, but it
is better solved in the end by coming up with a different way of
specifying rotation values (f-curves or the like).

> ------------
> another problem with the animation-plugin:
> choosing at the option menu "25 FPS" makes an animation with only every

> 5th frame to be rendered (polyray and povray)
> workaround is to choose "custom", type in 25 FPS, reset the end frame t
o
> 100 (or whatever it was) and now:
> -click "OK" and then render>animation. don't go back to render>options
> because the options menu will not be the same that you had left...

Yup - there's something busted there.  I noticed that the start/end
times didn't change appropriately to the change in frame rate (yuck -
that's painful code to write), as well as the custom frame rate not
being retained.

I'll fix that stuff for the next beta.

Xander

Post a reply to this message

"Alexander Enzmann" <xan### [at] mitreorg> wrote in message
news:38A84028.A4F5FCF3@mitre.org...
|
| Bob Hughes wrote:
| >
| > Figured I better go ahead and bring this up here.
| > The IK Keyframing isn't able to do multiple segments in one run apparently.
|
| I have a feeling that I'm going to need more information to really
| understand the problem here.  To make sure that I both understand what's
| happening (bug fix stuff), as well as what you really want to do
| (features), I might need a real step by step description.

I'm probably not the best person to describe it since I just started out several
days ago, really new to the whole thing, but here goes:

I'm trying out the robot.mdl for testing with the IK and I can get a one-time
animation which has just a beginning point (frame zero, only the key button
pressed) and end point (last frame, key button goes yellow automatically after a
movement is performed on the robot model).  It works fine, no problems.
However, if I try to do two such movements on the robot model it breaks the
keyframing and will not interpolate the two sequences.  This is what I was
unsure was supposed to be able to be done or not anyhow, one sequence of
interpolations or if multiple ones were at all possible.
At best the motions get muffled down to a slight movement, as if the
interpolation were being scaled way down.

| > I've managed a work around by doing separate segments where I right-click on
the
| > Key button before beginning the next part and choosing Delete/Scene keys.
That
| > way it starts fresh where the objects left off from the previous run.
|
| Are you trying to go from one point in time to another, yet keep an
| object in it's current orientation/position?  If that's all, then hold
| down the Shift key as you move the time slider.  No interpolation will
| occur.  When you get to the point in time you want to start things at,
| force a key (or keys) at that point.  Did I forget to add that in the
| docs (it may be under the place that talks about copying keys)?

I think so if I understand right.  The reason for that was simply to do one
keyframing sequence at a time since it didn't work all together in one
animation.  I made it render each separate animation instead was what I was
doing to get around the problem of the model not switching from one motion
segment to another.
The held Shift key is something I didn't know about.

| If you are just using IK in the process of building an animation, then I
| really need more info.  I've had no problems playing with Lutz's robot
| arm & IK to do little animations.

Not much to it to tell about.  I open the robot.mdl and press the Key button,
then I set the Options to have a certain number of frames, ie. 0 to 30.  I go
place the slider at 10 for example and move the robot arm into another position.
Move the slider to 20 and move the robot arm again and finally likewise a third
time.
Moving the slider from beginning to end to see the actions that will be done
only shows it to move from one position to another without any interpolating of
the movements.
I just saw a message posted tonight in which someone else at AOL has said the
official Moray 3.2 seemed to not have any bugs concerning this sort of thing but
I don't know exactly what was meant by that if the animation plugin isn't
updated as well.
Hopefully you could understand my explanations here, hate to make it tougher on
you than it already must be working with this stuff.  I was thrilled enough just
to see it in action, since after all Moray was able to do a IK animation but
like others I was trying to get multiple motions rendered out too and not able
too.  Still whether that is a bug or not is the whole reason for my question to
begin with.
Thanks for listening Alexander, anything more you want me to drone on about I'd
be more than willing.

Bob

Post a reply to this message

| When you get to the point in time you want to start things at,
| force a key (or keys) at that point.  Did I forget to add that in the
| docs (it may be under the place that talks about copying keys)?

Btw, no you didn't forget.  It's written down in there, pretty much everything's
said in the Doc (or *.Wri as the case may be) I guess.
I did forgot something.... I was using Linear and Cubic (one type at a time or
mixed) while setting the keyframes; I wasn't trying Step since I just figured
that wouldn't do interpolation of motion like I was wanting to check out.

Bob

Post a reply to this message

I think I get it now.  After going back to the robot model and trying to
recreate some animations I've done before, there appear to be a couple
of bugs...

First thing I noticed is that you really need to select "linear" or
"cubic" before setting the key (and it appears you may need to reselect
for each new key at times).  Otherwise the subobjects of the robot don't
have their interpolation set to linear.

An apparent bug (introduced in the last beta or so) is that if you force
a key (using Set|Object) doesn't properly propagate the
step/linear/cubic down into the subobjects.  this, I believe, is what is
causing your problems.

Xander

Bob Hughes wrote:
> 
> "Alexander Enzmann" <xan### [at] mitreorg> wrote in message
> news:38A84028.A4F5FCF3@mitre.org...
> |
> | Bob Hughes wrote:
> | >
> | > Figured I better go ahead and bring this up here.
> | > The IK Keyframing isn't able to do multiple segments in one run apparently.
> |
> | I have a feeling that I'm going to need more information to really
> | understand the problem here.  To make sure that I both understand what's
> | happening (bug fix stuff), as well as what you really want to do
> | (features), I might need a real step by step description.
> 
> I'm probably not the best person to describe it since I just started out several
> days ago, really new to the whole thing, but here goes:
> 
> I'm trying out the robot.mdl for testing with the IK and I can get a one-time
> animation which has just a beginning point (frame zero, only the key button
> pressed) and end point (last frame, key button goes yellow automatically after a
> movement is performed on the robot model).  It works fine, no problems.
> However, if I try to do two such movements on the robot model it breaks the
> keyframing and will not interpolate the two sequences.  This is what I was
> unsure was supposed to be able to be done or not anyhow, one sequence of
> interpolations or if multiple ones were at all possible.
> At best the motions get muffled down to a slight movement, as if the
> interpolation were being scaled way down.
> 
> | > I've managed a work around by doing separate segments where I right-click on
> the
> | > Key button before beginning the next part and choosing Delete/Scene keys.
> That
> | > way it starts fresh where the objects left off from the previous run.
> |
> | Are you trying to go from one point in time to another, yet keep an
> | object in it's current orientation/position?  If that's all, then hold
> | down the Shift key as you move the time slider.  No interpolation will
> | occur.  When you get to the point in time you want to start things at,
> | force a key (or keys) at that point.  Did I forget to add that in the
> | docs (it may be under the place that talks about copying keys)?
> 
> I think so if I understand right.  The reason for that was simply to do one
> keyframing sequence at a time since it didn't work all together in one
> animation.  I made it render each separate animation instead was what I was
> doing to get around the problem of the model not switching from one motion
> segment to another.
> The held Shift key is something I didn't know about.
> 
> | If you are just using IK in the process of building an animation, then I
> | really need more info.  I've had no problems playing with Lutz's robot
> | arm & IK to do little animations.
> 
> Not much to it to tell about.  I open the robot.mdl and press the Key button,
> then I set the Options to have a certain number of frames, ie. 0 to 30.  I go
> place the slider at 10 for example and move the robot arm into another position.
> Move the slider to 20 and move the robot arm again and finally likewise a third
> time.
> Moving the slider from beginning to end to see the actions that will be done
> only shows it to move from one position to another without any interpolating of
> the movements.
> I just saw a message posted tonight in which someone else at AOL has said the
> official Moray 3.2 seemed to not have any bugs concerning this sort of thing but
> I don't know exactly what was meant by that if the animation plugin isn't
> updated as well.
> Hopefully you could understand my explanations here, hate to make it tougher on
> you than it already must be working with this stuff.  I was thrilled enough just
> to see it in action, since after all Moray was able to do a IK animation but
> like others I was trying to get multiple motions rendered out too and not able
> too.  Still whether that is a bug or not is the whole reason for my question to
> begin with.
> Thanks for listening Alexander, anything more you want me to drone on about I'd
> be more than willing.
> 
> Bob

Post a reply to this message

"Alexander Enzmann" <xan### [at] mitreorg> wrote in message
news:38A94820.5F8014BB@mitre.org...
| An apparent bug (introduced in the last beta or so) is that if you force
| a key (using Set|Object) doesn't properly propagate the
| step/linear/cubic down into the subobjects.  this, I believe, is what is
| causing your problems.

Thanks for the semi-confirmation of the problem (but no thanks :-))
I still can get a perfectly fine animation with just the first and last frames
set but nothing right for in-between keyframes even if only moving the slider
and repositioning the model (with IK).  If what you're saying is that this
should be possible then I'm not able to; that was mainly what I wanted to find
out, if it were even intended in the first place or whether I was asking it to
do too much.
I'm continuing to try with the official Moray 3.2 that was just released and
seeing no difference in it yet.
Will let you know if I encounter any success.

Bob

Post a reply to this message

I believe there may be a workaround - it appears if you select the
entire object (not just the bottom thing you are manipulating with IK),
then force the key, you should get the proper interpolation.  If you are
doing things the way you ought to (moving the slider and wiggling the
end of the IK chain), the bug I described will cause problems just like
you describe.

Another thing that ought to help (with the current version) is when
setting the very first key, select the entire object before setting the
key.  That way when you move the slider it won't pick up the incorrect
interpolation type from the root of the object (which by default is
step).

I'll try to get corrected code posted in a day or so.

Xander

Bob Hughes wrote:
> 
> "Alexander Enzmann" <xan### [at] mitreorg> wrote in message
> news:38A94820.5F8014BB@mitre.org...
> | An apparent bug (introduced in the last beta or so) is that if you force
> | a key (using Set|Object) doesn't properly propagate the
> | step/linear/cubic down into the subobjects.  this, I believe, is what is
> | causing your problems.
> 
> Thanks for the semi-confirmation of the problem (but no thanks :-))
> I still can get a perfectly fine animation with just the first and last frames
> set but nothing right for in-between keyframes even if only moving the slider
> and repositioning the model (with IK).  If what you're saying is that this
> should be possible then I'm not able to; that was mainly what I wanted to find
> out, if it were even intended in the first place or whether I was asking it to
> do too much.
> I'm continuing to try with the official Moray 3.2 that was just released and
> seeing no difference in it yet.
> Will let you know if I encounter any success.
> 
> Bob

Post a reply to this message

Bob Hughes wrote:

> Thanks for the semi-confirmation of the problem (but no thanks :-))
> I still can get a perfectly fine animation with just the first and last frames
> set but nothing right for in-between keyframes even if only moving the slider
> and repositioning the model (with IK).

I run into the same problem trying to animate the robot, and I believe was one of
those who reported this problem to Xander. The problem (or bug) is that IK child
objects doesn't inherit the keys of their parents. Knowing this, "all" you have to
do is forcing the same keys for the child objects as well. See my post in p.b.a.

----------------------------------------------------
Mikael Carneholm
Dep. of Computer Science and Business Administration


Personal home page:
http://www.studenter.hb.se/~arch
E-mail:
sa9### [at] idautbhbse

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Terrific! That seems to do it right that way, thanks for the answer.
I should have thought to try selecting the whole thing myself.  At first though
I was fumbling with the whole model selected and trying to move it, and of
course it wouldn't (IK that is).  Then I selected only the end part to be moved
afterward and everything goes as planned, it's great.  Multiple movements and
all.
I found now that 'Cubic' is going to be a tough thing to get right because it
wants to make those spline-like motions but 'linear' is perfect it seems.

Thanks again for going to the trouble of answering.  Don't know what you have in
mind to "correct" this but if it will mean not having to select the whole model,
set keyframe, and select intended IK end piece, then that would be all the more
user-friendly.  I just don't have a clue as to how you made that plugin in the
first place  ;-)

Bob

"Alexander Enzmann" <xan### [at] mitreorg> wrote in message
news:38AA994D.4E68F691@mitre.org...
| I believe there may be a workaround - it appears if you select the
| entire object (not just the bottom thing you are manipulating with IK),
| then force the key, you should get the proper interpolation.  If you are
| doing things the way you ought to (moving the slider and wiggling the
| end of the IK chain), the bug I described will cause problems just like
| you describe.
|
| Another thing that ought to help (with the current version) is when
| setting the very first key, select the entire object before setting the
| key.  That way when you move the slider it won't pick up the incorrect
| interpolation type from the root of the object (which by default is
| step).
|
| I'll try to get corrected code posted in a day or so.
|
| Xander
|
| Bob Hughes wrote:
| >
| > "Alexander Enzmann" <xan### [at] mitreorg> wrote in message
| > news:38A94820.5F8014BB@mitre.org...
| > | An apparent bug (introduced in the last beta or so) is that if you force
| > | a key (using Set|Object) doesn't properly propagate the
| > | step/linear/cubic down into the subobjects.  this, I believe, is what is
| > | causing your problems.
| >
| > Thanks for the semi-confirmation of the problem (but no thanks :-))
| > I still can get a perfectly fine animation with just the first and last
frames
| > set but nothing right for in-between keyframes even if only moving the
slider
| > and repositioning the model (with IK).  If what you're saying is that this
| > should be possible then I'm not able to; that was mainly what I wanted to
find
| > out, if it were even intended in the first place or whether I was asking it
to
| > do too much.
| > I'm continuing to try with the official Moray 3.2 that was just released and
| > seeing no difference in it yet.
| > Will let you know if I encounter any success.
| >
| > Bob

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