POV-Ray : Newsgroups : irtc.animations : Frame size creates difficulty for viewers Server Time
23 Jun 2024 06:28:48 EDT (-0400)
  Frame size creates difficulty for viewers (Message 8 to 17 of 17)  
<<< Previous 7 Messages Goto Initial 10 Messages
From: Mark Wagner
Subject: Re: Frame size creates difficulty for viewers
Date: 25 Jul 2000 00:44:19
Message: <397d1b23@news.povray.org>
Dick Balaska wrote in message <397C458F.95F25E70@buckosoft.com>...
>Well, MPEG-1 is hardly bleeding edge.  It's certainly a lot older than
Win95
>and you wouldn't call that bleeding edge.  Are you not going to buy a DVD
player
>because that is certainly bleeding edge.  DVD is even MPEG-2.


MPEG-1 and MPEG-2 are *not* simply different versions of the same standard.
They are two *different* formats, designed to solve *different* problems.
MPEG-1 is optimized to compress solid-image video like what you get on a
computer, while MPEG-2 is optimized to compress interlaced-image video such
as is found on television broadcasts.  You could use MPEG-2 to compress your
IRTC entry, or MPEG-1 to compress a videotape, but the compression would be
far from ideal.

Mark


Post a reply to this message

From: Dick Balaska
Subject: Re: Frame size creates difficulty for viewers
Date: 25 Jul 2000 02:08:32
Message: <397D2EB6.1F3C3D3E@buckosoft.com>
Mark Wagner wrote:

> MPEG-1 and MPEG-2 are *not* simply different versions of the same standard.

correct.

> They are two *different* formats, designed to solve *different* problems.

hmm.

With the reference MPEG-2 codec from mpeg.org (or with png support from my place)
if i throw a switch, it disables some features, sets some limits, and generates
a perfectly legit MPEG-1 (granted it has too much compression, but it is legal)

The formats are almost identical; the difference lies in the compression
algorithms.

> MPEG-1 is optimized to compress solid-image video like what you get on a
> computer, 

MPEG-1 is optimized to compress JPEGs, which are not best suited for solid-image
video.  It comes from MJPEG, or multi-jpeg.  It was designed for network transmission;
hence the emphasis on the less than 1.8Mb bitrate, which is coincidentally 
near the rate of a T-1.

(Specifically, ALL MPEG formats are optimized to figure the difference between 
2 jpeg frames.  Basically, send frame 1 as a jpeg (very small); send frame 2 
as the difference between frame 2 and frame 1)

Solid image video would be like .FLI or .FLC or ani-gif.

> while MPEG-2 is optimized to compress interlaced-image video such
> as is found on television broadcasts.  

Interlacing is an option.  MPEG-2 was designed for HDTV, with wacky aspect ratios
and *lots* of data.  The HDTV boys took so long to get their act together that
MPEG-2 was (compatibly) rebuilt for lower end work.  It just happened to be perfect
for 
DVD (with a little encryption thrown in).  Some of the higher end MPEG-2 features
are still theory (AFAIK) like 30+ Mbps and 4:4:4 encoding.

> You could use MPEG-2 to compress your
> IRTC entry, 

Imagine "Antz", "Toy Story" or "ST:TNG the battle" on your 35" TV off of DVD and 
substitute your IRTC entry, yeah that would suck.

> or MPEG-1 to compress a videotape, but the compression would be far from ideal.

See some of the work from alt.binaries.multimedia.  If you're not into the "erotica"
end,
try to find the awesome Super Bowl commercials from last year.

I've watched a lot of broadcast TV (and tapes and DVD) over MPEG-1 [1].  6 months of
"Oprah"
and "Judge Judy" :)  I've seen "The Matrix" and "Antz" and "Total Recall" [2] over 100
times 
(but never more than 5 minutes at a pop :( )

MPEG-1 is not that bad.  In fact, one of the MPEG-1 design goals was to have the
bandwidth
of VHS video tape.

If you use a hardware encoder rather than some reference software encoder like cmpeg 
or mpeg_encode, then its hard to tell the difference between VHS and MPEG-1 TV output.

> Mark

--
[1] I was designing software to drive MPEG-2 hardware.  In the office, there were
about
    15 "channels" of multicast MPEG-1 running through the network at all times.

[2] There was much rejoicing when the DVDs came into the office because no longer
would
we have to watch afternoon TV or worse, remember to change tapes; just put on
"repeat".
Actually, the thing i have watched the most is the boot screen from my Sony DVD
player.
'Don't care what it plays, as long as its a solid video signal :)  I have gigabytes of
Sony DVD boot screen NTSC->MPEG-2 encoded on my hard disks. :)

dik


Post a reply to this message

From: Greg M  Johnson
Subject: Re: Frame size creates difficulty for viewers
Date: 25 Jul 2000 08:01:23
Message: <397D8065.F7C8ACD1@my-dejanews.com>
Dick Balaska wrote:

> "Greg M. Johnson" wrote:
> > Given John's restatement of the MPEG requirements, I suppose there is a little
> > more weight to the idea that the video player incapable of unusual frame sizes
> > is the bleeding edge.
>
> I noticed that since you've discovered "other" mpeg players, your latest vid
> is ~354x242 :)

?  I've been using the same $89 program for COMPILING of  MPEG's for almost a year
now, MainActor. I'll look and see if I've changed the format, but I doubt it.  I am
stuck with basic freeware in the "place" at which I do some of my VIEWING of MPEG's,
and suspected that I wasn't alone.  Anyway, I'm able to see my "354 x 242" at the
place with the default Windows software.

The discussion that followed went over my head. Was I half right, in that MPEG-2's are
being used but with "MPEG-1-compatible" switches, or what?


Post a reply to this message

From: Greg M  Johnson
Subject: Re: Frame size creates difficulty for viewers
Date: 27 Jul 2000 08:36:22
Message: <39802B98.BE70BD92@my-dejanews.com>
<!doctype html public "-//w3c//dtd html 4.0 transitional//en">
<html>
Ugh.
<p>I hath been driven deep into the bowels of M$ software.  With the
new media player, not only am I able to see these AVI's and irregular sized
MPEG-1's & 2's, but also I get to see the M$ logo for 2 seconds before
any animation plays, and mysteriously, one of my open web browsers seems
to have decided to visit the MSN.com homepage.
<br> 
<h1>
<b><i><u><font face="Centaur"><font color="#FF0000"><font
size=+0>Halleluiah!   
Embrace modernity and the M$ line of office
products!</font></font></font></u></i></b></h1>
 </html>


Post a reply to this message

From: Thorsten Froehlich
Subject: Re: Frame size creates difficulty for viewers
Date: 9 Aug 2000 13:20:22
Message: <399192d6@news.povray.org>
In article <39802B98.BE70BD92@my-dejanews.com> , "Greg M. Johnson" 
<gre### [at] my-dejanewscom> wrote:

> I hath been driven deep into the bowels of M$ software.  With the new media
> player, not only am I able to see these AVI's and irregular sized MPEG-1's
> & 2's, but also I get to see the M$ logo for 2 seconds before any animation
> plays, and mysteriously, one of my open web browsers seems to have decided
> to visit the MSN.com homepage.
>
> Halleluiah!   Embrace modernity and the M$ line of office products!

Solution to your problems:  Uninstall it and download QuickTime.  It doesn't
have any problems with MPEG-1 and you don't have to visit a M$ website each
time (and no Apple website either).


      Thorsten


Post a reply to this message

From: Ken
Subject: Re: Frame size creates difficulty for viewers
Date: 9 Aug 2000 14:38:19
Message: <3991A345.C492F7A8@pacbell.net>
Thorsten Froehlich wrote:

> Solution to your problems:  Uninstall it and download QuickTime.  It doesn't
> have any problems with MPEG-1 and you don't have to visit a M$ website each
> time (and no Apple website either).
> 
>       Thorsten

Ever since installing QT on my system I have been unable to load
mpegs form povray.binaries.animations because it crashes Netscape.

I hate QT !!!

-- 
Ken Tyler - 1400+ POV-Ray, Graphics, 3D Rendering, and Raytracing Links:
http://home.pacbell.net/tylereng/index.html http://www.povray.org/links/


Post a reply to this message

From: Thorsten Froehlich
Subject: Re: Frame size creates difficulty for viewers
Date: 14 Aug 2000 05:49:00
Message: <3997c08c@news.povray.org>
In article <3991A345.C492F7A8@pacbell.net> , Ken <tyl### [at] pacbellnet>  
wrote:

> Ever since installing QT on my system I have been unable to load
> mpegs form povray.binaries.animations because it crashes Netscape.
>
> I hate QT !!!

Its not a problem of QuickTime, it is one of Netscape.  Especially the
recent versions of Netscape (since 4.x) seem to associate completely wrong
Plug-Ins with file types.  On Macs it is already annoying, but on Windows it
seems to be even worse.  This causes bizarre problems when using QuickTime.
Manually (re-)associating the QT Plug-In with the file types helps most of
the time, even resolving crashes!

Did you try using a "real" newsreader that uses the same file-application
mappings Windows uses?  It should then automatically open the QuickTime
Movie Player - except of course you install any M$ product after QuickTime.
In that case you will have to reinstall QuickTime to get it working again.
This is one of the Windows "features" Apple demonstrated in the anti-thrust
case...


     Thorsten


PS: Upgrading to a Macintosh will also resolve your problems with Windows,
of course ;-)


____________________________________________________
Thorsten Froehlich, Duisburg, Germany
e-mail: tho### [at] trfde

Visit POV-Ray on the web: http://mac.povray.org


Post a reply to this message

From: John VanSickle
Subject: Re: Frame size creates difficulty for viewers
Date: 15 Aug 2000 21:00:13
Message: <3999E7EA.D99095D@erols.com>
Thorsten Froehlich wrote:
> 
> In article <3991A345.C492F7A8@pacbell.net> , Ken <tyl### [at] pacbellnet>
> wrote:
> 
> > Ever since installing QT on my system I have been unable to load
> > mpegs from povray.binaries.animations because it crashes Netscape.
> >
> > I hate QT !!!
> 
> Its not a problem of QuickTime, it is one of Netscape.

I've had QT crashes when opening a file directly through Windows
Explorer.

There is one option for QT that I detest.  Apparently a QT file can
contain nothing more than a bit of code that itself downloads the
actual anim.  This adds no value to the process; all it does is
give the software one more opportunity to break.

This bit of loading code also seems to prevent caching of the
animation.  This is VERY annoying.  Some of us like to download
a thing once, instead of every single time we want to view it.

Regards,
John
-- 
ICQ: 46085459


Post a reply to this message

From: Jerry
Subject: Re: Frame size creates difficulty for viewers
Date: 16 Aug 2000 11:07:12
Message: <jerry-8757AE.08071216082000@news.povray.org>
In article <399### [at] erolscom>, John VanSickle 
<van### [at] erolscom> wrote:
>There is one option for QT that I detest.  Apparently a QT file can
>contain nothing more than a bit of code that itself downloads the
>actual anim.  This adds no value to the process; all it does is
>give the software one more opportunity to break.

This is a very useful feature for dynamic information (such as live 
feeds). QT can't really be blamed because some other idiots (LOTR comes 
to mind) don't realize that their static information is not a live feed. 
(I don't know how many times I've re-downloaded the LOTR trailer wasting 
their bandwidth.)

If Apple had not added that feature, they would not be able to compete 
with Real (which as far as I can tell *only* works like that, and that's 
why news organizations like it).

Jerry


Post a reply to this message

From: John VanSickle
Subject: Re: Frame size creates difficulty for viewers
Date: 16 Aug 2000 21:44:35
Message: <399B43FD.E34BD9B4@erols.com>
Jerry wrote:
> 
> In article <399### [at] erolscom>, John VanSickle
> <van### [at] erolscom> wrote:
> >There is one option for QT that I detest.  Apparently a QT file can
> >contain nothing more than a bit of code that itself downloads the
> >actual anim.  This adds no value to the process; all it does is
> >give the software one more opportunity to break.
> 
> This is a very useful feature for dynamic information (such as live
> feeds). QT can't really be blamed because some other idiots (LOTR
> comes to mind) don't realize that their static information is not a
> live feed. (I don't know how many times I've re-downloaded the LOTR
> trailer wasting their bandwidth.)

The LotR trailer is what got me onto this rant.

> If Apple had not added that feature, they would not be able to compete
> with Real (which as far as I can tell *only* works like that, and
> that's why news organizations like it).

I can see the point here.  I was more angry at the LotR people for
using the feature than I was at QT for having the feature.

Regards,
John
-- 
ICQ: 46085459


Post a reply to this message

<<< Previous 7 Messages Goto Initial 10 Messages

Copyright 2003-2023 Persistence of Vision Raytracer Pty. Ltd.