On Tue, 13 May 2008 11:30:33 -0700, Darren New wrote:

> stbenge wrote:
>> Obviously the TV commercials are giving people the idea that they can
>> take SSRI/SNRIs for nearly any problem causing anxiety or depression.
> 
> In the US you need to get doctors to approve almost everything. I'm not
> sure I could call this the sole fault of the phama companies.

But when the pharma company sends out pamphlets to the doctors claiming 
all of these things that the medicine is good for, and then send reps who 
tell the doctors all the 'off label' uses the drug might also be used 
for, I wouldn't hold them blameless either.

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On Tue, 13 May 2008 09:17:57 -0700, stbenge wrote:

> Phil Cook wrote:
>> And lo on Tue, 13 May 2008 10:58:06 +0100, Warp <war### [at] tagpovrayorg>
>> did spake, saying:
>> 
>>> alphaQuad <alp### [at] earthlinknet> wrote:
>>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duloxetine
>>>
>>>   I was just wondering why should this be of any interest to us.
>> 
>> What, you mean you're not interested in Duloxetine? How can you not be
>> interested in Duloxetine? Isn't everyone interested and talking about
>> Duloxetine? What the hell is Duloxetine anyway?
> 
> "Duloxetine is a SNRI (selective serotonin-norepinephrine reuptake
> inhibitor)." ..."a drug which is indicated for major depressive
> disorder"
> 
> Has it not occurred to you that AQ might actually be warning you, so you
> won't take a harmful drug in the future? You aren't judging a man by his
>   style of information dispensation, are you?
> 
> SSRI/SNRIs are *not* the wonder drugs the pharmaceuticals would have you
> think they are. I've experienced SSRI-induced psychosis myself, although
> I'll admit I was wrongly diagnosed at the time. Simple precaution could
> have saved me a lot of trouble, a vehicle, a driver's license, and six
> months.
> 
> Here's something I picked up from Googling. I'm sure there are plenty
> more like it:
> http://www.drugawareness.org/Archives/Miscellaneous/MRadmissions.html
> 
>> And what the heck has this got to do with TV commercials evil or
>> otherwise?
> 
> Obviously the TV commercials are giving people the idea that they can
> take SSRI/SNRIs for nearly any problem causing anxiety or depression. If
> the 8% figure given by that article I linked to has any truth to it,
> society could be heading for disaster at any given moment, should a
> trigger occur...
> 
> Sam

There was an article just recently, http://medicine.plosjournals.org/
perlserv/?request=get-document&doi=10.1371%2Fjournal.pmed.0050045 that 
did a meta-analysis on previous drug studies. The findings were that 
SSRIs were not any more effective then placebos in mild to moderately 
depressed patients. It makes sense, since placebos do have a greater 
effect on subjective symptoms then on objective ones, and depression 
still seems to be a subjective reaction to chemicals.

I don't agree with AQ that all of the SSRIs are toxic, but they are just 
too widely over prescribed for things that don't require heavy chemical 
treatment. They aren't the wonder drugs that the media viewing public is 
being told that they are.

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On Tue, 13 May 2008 23:35:02 -0400, Sabrina Kilian wrote:

> but they are just
> too widely over prescribed

This is true of many drugs in general, IMHO.

Just look at the number of Ritalin scripts written in the 90's in the 
US.  Many of the kids who this (or other ADD-"fighting" drugs) was 
prescribed for didn't actually need it.

My stepson went to a school for gifted ADD and highly-distractable 
students, many of whom were on various drugs for their conditions - and 
while I'm no MD, it was clear to me that many of them were just very 
active kids with parents who wanted their kids to be "less active".  
There probably was a percentage who actually *needed* the drug, but I 
wouldn't hesitate to say that all of them didn't need it - though I 
certainly wouldn't be the one to decide who got it and who didn't.

Today we have so many new "medical conditions" that we've got drugs for 
it's ridiculous.  "Restless Legs Syndrome"?  Are you f-ing kidding me?  
People who "suffer" from that sound to me like they need to go and get 
some exercise.  (And I do get it from time to time - usually after taking 
Benedryl for my allergies or Tylenol PM - but in both cases, it's only 
the tabs that do that to me - the capsules don't).

Jim

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And lo on Tue, 13 May 2008 17:17:57 +0100, stbenge <stb### [at] hotmailcom>  
did spake, saying:

> Phil Cook wrote:
>> And lo on Tue, 13 May 2008 10:58:06 +0100, Warp <war### [at] tagpovrayorg>  
>> did spake, saying:
>>
>>> alphaQuad <alp### [at] earthlinknet> wrote:
>>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duloxetine
>>>
>>>   I was just wondering why should this be of any interest to us.
>>  What, you mean you're not interested in Duloxetine? How can you not be  
>> interested in Duloxetine? Isn't everyone interested and talking about  
>> Duloxetine? What the hell is Duloxetine anyway?
>
> "Duloxetine is a SNRI (selective serotonin-norepinephrine reuptake  
> inhibitor)." ..."a drug which is indicated for major depressive disorder"
>
> Has it not occurred to you that AQ might actually be warning you, so you  
> won't take a harmful drug in the future? You aren't judging a man by his  
>   style of information dispensation, are you?

Well the odd subject heading, verbatim quotes from Wikipedia and the  
redundant ~13KB molecule image don't help, likewise the assumption that  
you know exactly what s/he's talking about without any preamble.

> SSRI/SNRIs are *not* the wonder drugs the pharmaceuticals would have you  
> think they are. I've experienced SSRI-induced psychosis myself, although  
> I'll admit I was wrongly diagnosed at the time. Simple precaution could  
> have saved me a lot of trouble, a vehicle, a driver's license, and six  
> months.
>
> Here's something I picked up from Googling. I'm sure there are plenty  
> more like it:
> http://www.drugawareness.org/Archives/Miscellaneous/MRadmissions.html

http://flipc.blogspot.com/2008/02/so-drugs-dont-work.html yes I'm picking  
on the headlines more, but I had to do the research to do even that.

>> And what the heck has this got to do with TV commercials evil or  
>> otherwise?
>
> Obviously the TV commercials are giving people the idea that they can  
> take SSRI/SNRIs for nearly any problem causing anxiety or depression.

What TV commercials? Again it's the assumption we know what's being  
discussed here, it's like being thrust into the middle of a conversation.  
If this is a prescription drug then we here in the UK won't see ANY  
adverts for it, because they're not allowed to. We prefer our doctors to  
give out prescription medication based on effectiveness and not which has  
the catchiest jingle. Likewise we make the assumption that the doctor with  
the years of training may know more about this subject then the patient  
who's just seen a thirty-second advert.

-- 
Phil Cook

--
I once tried to be apathetic, but I just couldn't be bothered
http://flipc.blogspot.com

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stbenge wrote:

> 
> Why are you on it? You're probably not one of the 8% who goes psychotic.
> 
> I'm bipolar. Two years ago I was being treated with two antidepressants 
> and no mood stabilizers... a bad situation for somebody prone to have 
> manic episodes :O
> 

Ahh, I'm not bipolar, It's really a long story, but basically it boils 
down to a mood disorder (without getting into the details of it) I will 
say that it has helped immensely, I'm able to cope with stressful 
situations much better.

A bit of a background on all of this:

My one psychotic episode,

Actually, it all sort of started when my first wife left me (a good 
cause for depression) Before that had happened, I had known something 
wasn't quite "right" with me... I just couldn't place it. A few months 
after she left me, I began to hear strange things, like people taunting 
me, but I couldn't figure out where or how, it all seemed to be coming 
from outside the walls of my house. As it progressed the voices became 
more real, I had no insight at the time, I assumed I was psychic. Then, 
things sort of spiraled from there. I remember approaching a couple of 
sherrif's deputies stating I knew them previously, after wandering the 
halls of a rather large church going on about how the CIA was monitoring 
everyone with cameras. Everywhere. Seriously paranoid delusions. I 
actually believed what I was saying... Only I lied about one thing, it 
was the FBI doing the monitoring, not the CIA. They were in 
communication with me, through some sort of device. Anyway, I got some 
rather strange reactions when I started to warn people about the 
"surveillence" The deputy radioed for the local police to come. An 
officer interviewed me, and I acted very erratically. I took him to my 
car. He asked to search the car, I had no problems with that. He asked 
me a couple questions about the contents. I answered the questions. He 
asked if I was going to head straight home, I answered affirmatively, he 
handed my keys to me and let me go. To this day I do not know why he 
didn't toss me in the back of his car and cart me off to the hospital.

There's really way more to it than that. I believed for some time that I 
was able to speak telepathically to alien entities as well before I got 
help.

Once I was on antidepressants and antipsychotics, I was fine. As time 
went by, I found I was better able to handle most situations, and would 
respond normally to stress. I went off meds for a while (My current wife 
met me while I was on meds, and noticed a huge difference in mood. Some 
incidents after the baby was born, and she insisted I return to my 
psychiatrist, this time prescribing a different antidepressant. It has 
really turned me around. I'm definitely more capable of focusing on the 
task at hand, and not letting emotions get control of me. I still feel 
emotion, but I can control how I react much better. It was almost like a 
missing piece to the puzzle was found and put back.

Anyway, I've rattled on enough ... I have no idea what my likelihood of 
another psychotic episode in my lifetime will be, though.

I suppose that's why I get a bit annoyed at alphaQuad's seemingly 
paranoid ramblings about pharmaceuticals, because many of these 
medications do work when used as intended.

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Jim Henderson wrote:

> Today we have so many new "medical conditions" that we've got drugs for 
> it's ridiculous.  "Restless Legs Syndrome"?  Are you f-ing kidding me?  
> People who "suffer" from that sound to me like they need to go and get 
> some exercise.  (And I do get it from time to time - usually after taking 
> Benedryl for my allergies or Tylenol PM - but in both cases, it's only 
> the tabs that do that to me - the capsules don't).

I get like that if I'm really, really sleepy and forcing myself to stay 
awake. Sometimes that carries over to when I actually go to bed.

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On Wed, 14 May 2008 07:02:55 -0500, Mike Raiford wrote:

> Jim Henderson wrote:
> 
>> Today we have so many new "medical conditions" that we've got drugs for
>> it's ridiculous.  "Restless Legs Syndrome"?  Are you f-ing kidding me?
>> People who "suffer" from that sound to me like they need to go and get
>> some exercise.  (And I do get it from time to time - usually after
>> taking Benedryl for my allergies or Tylenol PM - but in both cases,
>> it's only the tabs that do that to me - the capsules don't).
> 
> I get like that if I'm really, really sleepy and forcing myself to stay
> awake. Sometimes that carries over to when I actually go to bed.

I think a lot of people do.  But now we have a name for it and a drug to 
treat it...

Jim

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On Tue, 13 May 2008 23:58:45 -0400, Jim Henderson wrote:

> This is true of many drugs in general, IMHO.
>

Yup, at least here in the USA. Every drug has a theme and a catchy new 
name for a disorder that's been around for a long time. But the one with 
the catchiest words gets prescribed.
 
> Just look at the number of Ritalin scripts written in the 90's in the
> US.  Many of the kids who this (or other ADD-"fighting" drugs) was
> prescribed for didn't actually need it.
> 
> My stepson went to a school for gifted ADD and highly-distractable
> students, many of whom were on various drugs for their conditions - and
> while I'm no MD, it was clear to me that many of them were just very
> active kids with parents who wanted their kids to be "less active".
> There probably was a percentage who actually *needed* the drug, but I
> wouldn't hesitate to say that all of them didn't need it - though I
> certainly wouldn't be the one to decide who got it and who didn't.
> 

I'm afraid that if I commented on this, I would end up ranting. I'll 
leave it as that I agree with you on this point, and lazy parenting seems 
to be a source of a lot of issues.

> Today we have so many new "medical conditions" that we've got drugs for
> it's ridiculous.  "Restless Legs Syndrome"?  Are you f-ing kidding me?
> People who "suffer" from that sound to me like they need to go and get
> some exercise.  (And I do get it from time to time - usually after
> taking Benedryl for my allergies or Tylenol PM - but in both cases, it's
> only the tabs that do that to me - the capsules don't).
> 
> Jim

Some people can't exercise, so I can see the use of the medication. On a 
bad day when I can't walk, my legs get that feeling. And when you can't 
walk with two canes and a decent level of opioid compounds in your blood 
stream, you just aren't going to get that exercise. On the up side, you 
don't notice "RLS" with that level of pain killers, so it doesn't often 
become an issue.

Diphenhydramine HCL(Benadryl) gives me the heebeejeebees, plain and 
simple. Past seeing spots, even the allergy dose has me seeing cats 
walking through walls. Probably why SSRIs give me trouble too, since 
Benadryl begot Prozac begot the rest of the whole mess.


Also funny, seeing a doctor's face when the read 'Allergic to benadryl' 
on a form. They don't know how to process 'allergic to an anti-allergy 
medication'.

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Jim Henderson wrote:
> My stepson went to a school for gifted ADD and highly-distractable
> students, many of whom were on various drugs for their conditions - and
> while I'm no MD, it was clear to me that many of them were just very
> active kids with parents who wanted their kids to be "less active".
> There probably was a percentage who actually *needed* the drug, but I
> wouldn't hesitate to say that all of them didn't need it - though I
> certainly wouldn't be the one to decide who got it and who didn't.
(grr, lost post half-written, no draft saved)

Kids are *always* hyperactive. And particularly annoying trying to always
get the attention of their parents (ever seen a kid repeating "mommy look
what I found!" until mommy looks, *literally* a hundred times if needed?).
The problem is with parents distinguishing when it's normal and when it's
really ADHD.

I guess my case is different because *I* notice *my* lack of attention. And
talk to friends about "do you ever get distracted with X" to see if it's
normal or my ADD. (*) I mean, sure, everyone gets distracted during a
boring class at school. But I could spend several minutes during an exam
playing around with the pen and thinking about *whatever*, without
even "remembering" I'm at an exam. I just "wake up" and "oh yeah I'm
halfway on an exam... where was I...". Or just anywhere else. Like spending
an hour on the *shower*, who knows how much time actually washing and how
much with my mind on the moon.

(*) at this point in writing this post, I spent like a whole hour reading
forums, completely forgetting I had this post half-written behind the
browser window.

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Jim Henderson wrote:
> it's ridiculous.  "Restless Legs Syndrome"?  Are you f-ing kidding me?  
> People who "suffer" from that sound to me like they need to go and get 
> some exercise.  

My sister-in-law has this. It's apparently related to Parkinson's 
disease. I think the truth is that it's a real problem for many fewer 
people than the drug companies would lead you to believe.

-- 
   Darren New / San Diego, CA, USA (PST)
     "That's pretty. Where's that?"
          "It's the Age of Channelwood."
     "We should go there on vacation some time."

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