On Sat, 16 Feb 2008 14:08:46 -0500, nemesis wrote:

> yes, I wonder why would it be that way.  Perhaps because those who are
> parents can't get on with the idea that places previously thought safe
> for their kids are not anymore!!

Yes, because shootings happen in every school in the US every day.

Oh, wait, no they don't.  It's a rare occurrence, but when it happens, we 
get days and days and days of coverage of it.

That's not to dismiss the horrors of the shootings that occur, but let's 
have some sense of proportion here.

Jim

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On Sat, 16 Feb 2008 20:32:43 +0100, Vincent Le Chevalier wrote:

> Jim Henderson a écrit :
>> On Sat, 16 Feb 2008 14:57:42 +0100, Vincent Le Chevalier wrote:
>> 
>>> I'm not too clear on the laws in the United States or on the specific
>>> reglementations on campuses etc. When are the actions of someone
>>> behaving like that becoming illegal exactly? Wouldn't a law give them
>>> a chance of realizing they are doing something wrong earlier?
>> 
>> Not necessarily, because those who break the law do so generally with
>> the intention of not getting caught.
>> 
>> 
> Ok, but my point was not that they would get caught earlier, but simply
> that they might realize that they are trying to do something wrong
> earlier, and possibly abandon the project. I don't know if it really
> works...

I think for some it does, but for most, they have an intent that isn't 
going to be overridden by whether or not there's a law or not against it.

Remember the old saying - locks on doors are to keep honest people honest.

Jim

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Jim Henderson <nos### [at] nospamcom> wrote:
> On Sat, 16 Feb 2008 13:46:43 -0500, nemesis wrote:
>
> > Unless gory details were suppressed by the press in the 20's, 30's,
> > 40's, 50's and the lisergic 60's, I think the absence of violent acts
> > like this is pretty much non documented.  Not just the press:  I don't
> > recall either movies or books plots dealing about school shootings.
> > Pretty much all criminal TV shows have had school shootings or civilian
> > sharpshooters in their plots by now.
>
> Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence...

really sad seeing a friend go delusional...

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Jim Henderson <nos### [at] nospamcom> wrote:
> On Sat, 16 Feb 2008 14:08:46 -0500, nemesis wrote:
> > yes, I wonder why would it be that way.  Perhaps because those who are
> > parents can't get on with the idea that places previously thought safe
> > for their kids are not anymore!!
>
> Yes, because shootings happen in every school in the US every day.
> ...
> That's not to dismiss the horrors of the shootings that occur, but let's
> have some sense of proportion here.

ok. about twice a year is more accurate. Since Columbine.

Never heard of school shootings before, even here in Brazil's favelas...

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On Sat, 16 Feb 2008 17:31:24 -0500, nemesis wrote:

> Jim Henderson <nos### [at] nospamcom> wrote:
>> On Sat, 16 Feb 2008 13:46:43 -0500, nemesis wrote:
>>
>> > Unless gory details were suppressed by the press in the 20's, 30's,
>> > 40's, 50's and the lisergic 60's, I think the absence of violent acts
>> > like this is pretty much non documented.  Not just the press:  I
>> > don't recall either movies or books plots dealing about school
>> > shootings. Pretty much all criminal TV shows have had school
>> > shootings or civilian sharpshooters in their plots by now.
>>
>> Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence...
> 
> really sad seeing a friend go delusional...

Yes, it is sad to see friends go delusional - I have watched it happen.

Now, if you're trying to say that *I'm* delusional, that's another matter 
altogether.

I'm simply stating that just because there isn't evidence doesn't mean it 
didn't happen.

Jim

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On Sat, 16 Feb 2008 17:37:02 -0500, nemesis wrote:

> Jim Henderson <nos### [at] nospamcom> wrote:
>> On Sat, 16 Feb 2008 14:08:46 -0500, nemesis wrote:
>> > yes, I wonder why would it be that way.  Perhaps because those who
>> > are parents can't get on with the idea that places previously thought
>> > safe for their kids are not anymore!!
>>
>> Yes, because shootings happen in every school in the US every day. ...
>> That's not to dismiss the horrors of the shootings that occur, but
>> let's have some sense of proportion here.
> 
> ok. about twice a year is more accurate. Since Columbine.

Well, I found one reference that documents 12 in the 3 years prior to 
Columbine, starting with one in Moses Lake, WA, where a 14-year old 
opened fire in his algebra class.

Or how about Dunblane, Scotland, where a kid killed *16* children and a 
teacher, and wounded 10 others?

Both of those in 1996.

http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0777958.html

(And before you say "well, that's 1996", read the page title - it says 
"RECENT worldwide school shootings")

Now look at the crime data at http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0908221.html 
- 1992-2000 shows 234 homicides at school and *24,406* deaths of kids 
(homicides) aged 5-19 in that same time period away from school.

PLEASE do some research before making false declarations.

> Never heard of school shootings before, even here in Brazil's favelas...

Just because you've never heard of them doesn't mean they haven't 
happened.

(General question to the group)  What is it with some people in here?  
They seem to think that because THEY haven't seen it, it must not have 
happened?  Because THEY don't understand it, it can't be understood?  
Because it's outside THEIR realm of experience, it MUST be outside 
everyone's realm of experience?

Jim

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On Sat, 16 Feb 2008 19:11:30 -0500, Jim Henderson wrote:

> On Sat, 16 Feb 2008 17:31:24 -0500, nemesis wrote:
> 
>> Jim Henderson <nos### [at] nospamcom> wrote:
>>> On Sat, 16 Feb 2008 13:46:43 -0500, nemesis wrote:
>>>
>>> > Unless gory details were suppressed by the press in the 20's, 30's,
>>> > 40's, 50's and the lisergic 60's, I think the absence of violent
>>> > acts like this is pretty much non documented.  Not just the press: 
>>> > I don't recall either movies or books plots dealing about school
>>> > shootings. Pretty much all criminal TV shows have had school
>>> > shootings or civilian sharpshooters in their plots by now.
>>>
>>> Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence...
>> 
>> really sad seeing a friend go delusional...
> 
> Yes, it is sad to see friends go delusional - I have watched it happen.
> 
> Now, if you're trying to say that *I'm* delusional, that's another
> matter altogether.
> 
> I'm simply stating that just because there isn't evidence doesn't mean
> it didn't happen.

Or rather (and more correctly) since you *haven't seen* the evidence 
doesn't mean (a) it didn't happen, and (b) there isn't evidence.

Jim

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On Sat, 16 Feb 2008 16:32:35 -0500, Sabrina Kilian wrote:

> The problem that I saw, first hand in the USA high school system, is
> that there is often no hope. I don't work in a school, so I can't
> observe how it's changed over time. But I did ask some others people for
> their memories of school. There have always been cliques, but it seems
> that kids have been getting more and more insular and stopped talking to
> people not in their group. Whether the 5 year olds playing team sports,
> or parents arranging strict play dates is to blame for this is another
> discussion.
> 
> So kids grow up with much less of a safety net, and very few people to
> talk to when things go wrong. Take a common occurrence, a fight within
> one of these small groups of kids. One kid singled out, where do they go
> and who can they turn to?

Well, from my own experience (I was a loner/nerd/geek all through school 
through the 70s and 80s), school counseling can help.  When I was in 3rd 
or 4th grade, I used to meet with a school counselor once or twice a 
week.  We'd talk, play cards, whatever - it was a chance at interaction 
that I wasn't getting from my peers.

Now while I am arguing one on one side that school shootings/violence 
isn't anything new, the frequency can be somewhat alarming - but things 
like kids getting together and arranging to meet out in the playground 
after school for a fistfight is something I remember from my early 
elementary school days in the late 70's.

> IMO, the problem isn't the guns or these kids either killing themselves
> or killing others before they kill them self. It's that these situations
> occur in the first place.

Well, part of the problem is that they've managed to get their hands on 
the weapons - and that's down to poor parental supervision in many cases 
of modern school violence.  That certainly can be demonstrated to be the 
case in the Columbine event - the parents appeared to be totally clueless 
that their kids were out in the garage making pipe bombs.

>> As for depression and drugs; it would probably be better (IMO) if drugs
>> were used as a last resort if at all. But then you would have to put
>> more effort into helping people which would not be as profitable to the
>> established money makers.
> 
> You haven't seen what counselors charge by the hour, have you? The drugs
> are common because they are the cheap answer, cheap enough to be
> available to the people who really should be getting counseling but
> can't afford it.

Well, my own experience with the school counselor back in elementary 
school was that the school provided him for that service.  Maybe schools 
don't do that any more, though - I don't know.

> Or worse, is convinced that anyone who gets counseling is already too
> far gone to be helped.

I'm sure that happens too.

>> "Drugs" are both fashionable and a dirty word. The easy way out until
>> you have to pay the final price and it looks like judgement day is
>> getting closer. If it is of any interest to anyone other than myself. I
>> have turned down two job opportunities to work across the pond because
>> I don't want to put myself through the hassle of living the life I see
>> over there. Now this is not to say that I haven't met many fine people
>> from the land of the free, I have. Some of them here on this newsgroup,
>> a lot at work, some as visitors to my country etc. but it seems like a
>> society that is best experienced from a distance.

Not really - for the most part, it's pretty sane over here, Stephen - 
there are, of course, places you probably should avoid and crime does 
happen (hell, I witnessed a fistfight last night between a couple of 
grown adults outside our gym - and I was on the phone to the police not 
long after it broke out).  But that's not the norm.  It just seems like 
it because the news over here is nearly always a body count - 
sensationalism sells news - and on TV and in the papers, that sells 
advertising.

There's a reason I avoid most news outlets these days.  I keep up on 
things in other ways - mostly using the 'net.

> Eh, it's quite fun here on a day to day basis. Lots of us don't even own
> guns, we have pets we care about, and we don't eat babies. Often.

:-)  3 cats, no guns, and no babies to eat (our kid's 20 now).

> Besides that, I think there is still some hope. The violence is a
> symptom, not the problem that needs to be solved.

Well said.

Jim

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Jim Henderson <nos### [at] nospamcom> wrote:
> (And before you say "well, that's 1996", read the page title - it says
> "RECENT worldwide school shootings")

well, wikipedia is of course always more detailed:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/School_shooting

just in the USA:

2008: 5 occurrences
2007: 3
2006: 5
2005: 2
2004: 0
2003: 4
2002: 2
2001: 2
2000: 1
2000's so far: 24

1999: 2
1998: 3
1997: 3
1996: 1
1995: 1
1994: 0
1993: 1
1992: 2
1991: 1
1990's total: 14

1989: 1
1983: 1
1980's total: 2

1979: 1
1976: 1
1970: 2
1970's total: 4

1968: 1
1966: 1
1960's total: 2

No reports of school shootings before that.  The trend of school shooting has
certainly grew a lot beginning in the nineties.  It far surpassed the political
shootings in the 60's, 70's.

Perhaps we can work out some big conspiracy theory at work here to hide the gory
details.  Certainly we can imagine afro-americans in the early XX's being
persecuted when finally being able to go to public schools and jew children in
Germany also suffering from violence before going to concentration camps.

But political persecution is not the motive behind the recent shootings.

> PLEASE do some research before making false declarations.

I did.

> > Never heard of school shootings before, even here in Brazil's favelas...
>
> Just because you've never heard of them doesn't mean they haven't
> happened.

No, because daily we see in the news conflicts between cops and drug dealers in
the favelas.  Whenever any passer-by is shot, it generates huge crowds, big
news in TV.  If shootings happened in schools, it would be everywhere,
politicals would show up in TV etc.

> They seem to think that because THEY haven't seen it, it must not have
> happened?

I haven't seen UFOs.  I don't discard their existence altogether though.
I haven't personally seen the Holocaust, but I believe those old and disturbing
B&W photos and films were authentic.
I haven't seen Jesus, yet I'm a believer.

I haven't seen documented school shootings in past ages, nor any evidence of it
in literary works.  I have no motives to believe our grandparents were living
in denial.

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Jim Henderson wrote:
> On Sat, 16 Feb 2008 16:32:35 -0500, Sabrina Kilian wrote:
> 
>> The problem that I saw, first hand in the USA high school system, is
>> that there is often no hope. I don't work in a school, so I can't
>> observe how it's changed over time. But I did ask some others people for
>> their memories of school. There have always been cliques, but it seems
>> that kids have been getting more and more insular and stopped talking to
>> people not in their group. Whether the 5 year olds playing team sports,
>> or parents arranging strict play dates is to blame for this is another
>> discussion.
>>
>> So kids grow up with much less of a safety net, and very few people to
>> talk to when things go wrong. Take a common occurrence, a fight within
>> one of these small groups of kids. One kid singled out, where do they go
>> and who can they turn to?
> 
> Well, from my own experience (I was a loner/nerd/geek all through school 

Was that actually a clique then? =)

> through the 70s and 80s), school counseling can help.  When I was in 3rd 
> or 4th grade, I used to meet with a school counselor once or twice a 
> week.  We'd talk, play cards, whatever - it was a chance at interaction 
> that I wasn't getting from my peers.
> 

Poor rural school I went to had guidance counselors. While they were
great at helping students find the right colleges to apply to, their
advice over disputes was a little lacking. I think some advice I heard
was to 'stick up for yourself' as a deterrent to bullying. While not the
best way to stick up for themselves, violence does fit against that
simple instruction.

> Now while I am arguing one on one side that school shootings/violence 
> isn't anything new, the frequency can be somewhat alarming - but things 
> like kids getting together and arranging to meet out in the playground 
> after school for a fistfight is something I remember from my early 
> elementary school days in the late 70's.
> 

So the violence has been there for at least 30 years. That's not what's
changed.

>> IMO, the problem isn't the guns or these kids either killing themselves
>> or killing others before they kill them self. It's that these situations
>> occur in the first place.
> 
> Well, part of the problem is that they've managed to get their hands on 
> the weapons - and that's down to poor parental supervision in many cases 
> of modern school violence.  That certainly can be demonstrated to be the 
> case in the Columbine event - the parents appeared to be totally clueless 
> that their kids were out in the garage making pipe bombs.
> 

I don't know, I've heard that back in the 50's and 60's schools actually
had hunting clubs, and boys keeping their rifle in the locker wasn't
that uncommon.

I'd say part of the problem is a lack of respect, for each other and
life in general.

>>> As for depression and drugs; it would probably be better (IMO) if drugs
>>> were used as a last resort if at all. But then you would have to put
>>> more effort into helping people which would not be as profitable to the
>>> established money makers.
>> You haven't seen what counselors charge by the hour, have you? The drugs
>> are common because they are the cheap answer, cheap enough to be
>> available to the people who really should be getting counseling but
>> can't afford it.
> 
> Well, my own experience with the school counselor back in elementary 
> school was that the school provided him for that service.  Maybe schools 
> don't do that any more, though - I don't know.
> 

My school might have offered one, but rumors fly in a small area. 4th
graders and cousins who hear through the grape vine can both be very cruel.

>> Or worse, is convinced that anyone who gets counseling is already too
>> far gone to be helped.
> 
> I'm sure that happens too.
> 


One day visiting a counselor will be like seeing a doctor for an ear
infection. Till then, ask a kid, grade school to college age, whether
they would prefer to be healthy or to maintain their image.

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