Jim Henderson wrote:
> On Sat, 16 Feb 2008 16:32:35 -0500, Sabrina Kilian wrote:
> 
>> The problem that I saw, first hand in the USA high school system, is
>> that there is often no hope. I don't work in a school, so I can't
>> observe how it's changed over time. But I did ask some others people for
>> their memories of school. There have always been cliques, but it seems
>> that kids have been getting more and more insular and stopped talking to
>> people not in their group. Whether the 5 year olds playing team sports,
>> or parents arranging strict play dates is to blame for this is another
>> discussion.
>>
>> So kids grow up with much less of a safety net, and very few people to
>> talk to when things go wrong. Take a common occurrence, a fight within
>> one of these small groups of kids. One kid singled out, where do they go
>> and who can they turn to?
> 
> Well, from my own experience (I was a loner/nerd/geek all through school 

Was that actually a clique then? =)

> through the 70s and 80s), school counseling can help.  When I was in 3rd 
> or 4th grade, I used to meet with a school counselor once or twice a 
> week.  We'd talk, play cards, whatever - it was a chance at interaction 
> that I wasn't getting from my peers.
> 

Poor rural school I went to had guidance counselors. While they were
great at helping students find the right colleges to apply to, their
advice over disputes was a little lacking. I think some advice I heard
was to 'stick up for yourself' as a deterrent to bullying. While not the
best way to stick up for themselves, violence does fit against that
simple instruction.

> Now while I am arguing one on one side that school shootings/violence 
> isn't anything new, the frequency can be somewhat alarming - but things 
> like kids getting together and arranging to meet out in the playground 
> after school for a fistfight is something I remember from my early 
> elementary school days in the late 70's.
> 

So the violence has been there for at least 30 years. That's not what's
changed.

>> IMO, the problem isn't the guns or these kids either killing themselves
>> or killing others before they kill them self. It's that these situations
>> occur in the first place.
> 
> Well, part of the problem is that they've managed to get their hands on 
> the weapons - and that's down to poor parental supervision in many cases 
> of modern school violence.  That certainly can be demonstrated to be the 
> case in the Columbine event - the parents appeared to be totally clueless 
> that their kids were out in the garage making pipe bombs.
> 

I don't know, I've heard that back in the 50's and 60's schools actually
had hunting clubs, and boys keeping their rifle in the locker wasn't
that uncommon.

I'd say part of the problem is a lack of respect, for each other and
life in general.

>>> As for depression and drugs; it would probably be better (IMO) if drugs
>>> were used as a last resort if at all. But then you would have to put
>>> more effort into helping people which would not be as profitable to the
>>> established money makers.
>> You haven't seen what counselors charge by the hour, have you? The drugs
>> are common because they are the cheap answer, cheap enough to be
>> available to the people who really should be getting counseling but
>> can't afford it.
> 
> Well, my own experience with the school counselor back in elementary 
> school was that the school provided him for that service.  Maybe schools 
> don't do that any more, though - I don't know.
> 

My school might have offered one, but rumors fly in a small area. 4th
graders and cousins who hear through the grape vine can both be very cruel.

>> Or worse, is convinced that anyone who gets counseling is already too
>> far gone to be helped.
> 
> I'm sure that happens too.
> 


One day visiting a counselor will be like seeing a doctor for an ear
infection. Till then, ask a kid, grade school to college age, whether
they would prefer to be healthy or to maintain their image.

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