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In article <48169310$1@news.povray.org>, dne### [at] san rrcom says...
> Patrick Elliott wrote:
> > So nice an idea, so bad an execution, so dumb a set of specifications
>
> I think that pretty much sums up my involvement. Along with "hey, if you
> want people to do serious scripting, let the scripts actually deal with
> errors and such." I can understand it's all asynchronous and distributed
> and such, but at least tell me when something breaks. And at least let
> someone tell me it's OK to put restrictions on what they can do while
> they're (say) playing a game.
>
> I did a board game where you could cheat if you saw the other guy's side
> (think "battleship"), and I spent more time dealing with bugs in the
> engine and making sure you weren't cheating than I did on the game logic
> *or* the artwork.
>
> I was thinking of doing M.U.L.E. or something, but not being able to
> have people follow rules just ruled that out, along with not being able
> to (say) know when an object creation failed, or being able to reset the
> board.
>
Would have probably made a HUD for that if I was doing it, or secluded
people so they couldn't "see" outside their spot, or.. Well, there are
things you could do to fix it, but yeah. Definitely annoying.
> Altho flying around and seeing 300 stores with absolutely nobody
> anywhere in sight was kind of creepy. Huge monuments to dead military
> relatives and such, with nobody there to even look... Creepy.
>
> Great business idea. Sucky execution. I understand they now let you at
> least import geometry from geometry editors, just like every other game
> engine written in the last 15 years. :-)
>
Yeah. Reading up on it, but its a pain, since you can get "some" editors
that let you fiddle with the geometry in-world, but then you can't just
pay a few right there and transfer the result "to" your inventory, you
have to go to on outside URL, from the people that made the tool, then
pay to "upload" the result to SL. Thought it would be a nice solution to
something I considered doing, but... What a fracking pain.
Things are improving though, especially now that the client in open, but
there are just some things that are damn stupid still, and no idea when
they might be fixed.
--
void main () {
if version = "Vista" {
call slow_by_half();
call DRM_everything();
}
call functional_code();
}
else
call crash_windows();
}
<A HREF='http://www.daz3d.com/index.php?refid=16130551'>Get 3D Models,
3D Content, and 3D Software at DAZ3D!</A>
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In article <481772db@news.povray.org>, dot### [at] dotcom says...
> I tried the demo of Second Life some time ago and thought it was a good
> experience. I felt that I was 'there' in their presence - amongst all tho
se
> other 'new' people trying the demo for the first time. Weird experience.
> I've been following it though. It's damn big business now. I had another
> look recently, and you can own a shop and sell real stuff an' all. Real
> Shops. So that's why I was looking again. To see what the advantage may b
e
> for my works business, and to be blunt, it's too much work. You need to b
e
> dedicated in a business way which would probably mean 24/7 in SL. And my
> paymaster general ain't into paying for that.
>
> ~Steve~
>
lol Well, there are some people in the real world using it. One has a
full cruise ship in SL. It takes up 3 connected sims and can link up to
places like, "Visit Mexico", to let people act like they are on a real
cruise. His "original" business is designing buildings and the like, so
he uses the system to show people what they will look like when
finished.
But, having to get an premium account to own land at all, getting barely
enough to do much with when you do own it, etc., is just too high of a
wall for people to cross imho, even if they fixed a lot of other issues.
Still exploring though, so its likely to be a while before I drop it, or
give up the land I have. Just wish I could get more, without paying more
than I do for a **full** world, like EQ2, so I could actually do
something with it. :(
--
void main () {
if version = "Vista" {
call slow_by_half();
call DRM_everything();
}
call functional_code();
}
else
call crash_windows();
}
<A HREF='http://www.daz3d.com/index.php?refid=16130551'>Get 3D Models,
3D Content, and 3D Software at DAZ3D!</A>
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In article <48177fab$1@news.povray.org>,
nic### [at] gmailisthebestcom says...
> http://img526.imageshack.us/my.php?image=wtftq1.gif
>
> How f*cked up is THAT.
>
Fairly common now actually. Some stores actually use SL to "train"
people in customer service, in a few cases. Such companies can afford
it, which is imho the "biggest" issue for most anyone else trying to use
it.
--
void main () {
if version = "Vista" {
call slow_by_half();
call DRM_everything();
}
call functional_code();
}
else
call crash_windows();
}
<A HREF='http://www.daz3d.com/index.php?refid=16130551'>Get 3D Models,
3D Content, and 3D Software at DAZ3D!</A>
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> In article <48177fab$1@news.povray.org> Nicolas says...
>> http://img526.imageshack.us/my.php?image=wtftq1.gif
>>
>> How f*cked up is THAT.
>>
> Fairly common now actually. Some stores actually use SL to "train"
> people in customer service, in a few cases. Such companies can afford
> it, which is imho the "biggest" issue for most anyone else trying to use
> it.
Btw I got that image from an email my dad forwarded me, asking if I knew
what the hell SecondLife was :P
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Patrick Elliott wrote:
> Would have probably made a HUD for that if I was doing it,
HUDs came out about a month after I gave up. :-)
> or secluded people so they couldn't "see" outside their spot,
I made them sit in a chair, and stay in mouse-look mode, and ended the
game if they stood up or left first-person mode. But it was a pain in
the butt, moreso than actually writing the game.
Even genning up the game board was annoying, because it had to be made
from a board, two chairs, and 25 playing pieces on each side, so if the
plot was close to full, it would fail to create things halfway through
and you couldn't tell.
> pay to "upload" the result to SL. Thought it would be a nice solution to
> something I considered doing, but... What a fracking pain.
Strange. I read on their blog recently you could just use Bryce to make
some geometry and use it. Maybe I misunderstood, or the article wasn't
completely clear.
> Things are improving though, especially now that the client in open, but
> there are just some things that are damn stupid still, and no idea when
> they might be fixed.
Yeah. Like I said, interesting idea, suboptimal execution. At some
point, someone will get it right and eat their lunch.
--
Darren New / San Diego, CA, USA (PST)
"That's pretty. Where's that?"
"It's the Age of Channelwood."
"We should go there on vacation some time."
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Nicolas Alvarez wrote:
> Btw I got that image from an email my dad forwarded me, asking if I knew
> what the hell SecondLife was :P
http://www.getafirstlife.com/
--
Darren New / San Diego, CA, USA (PST)
"That's pretty. Where's that?"
"It's the Age of Channelwood."
"We should go there on vacation some time."
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In article <4818923d$1@news.povray.org>, dne### [at] sanrrcom says...
> Patrick Elliott wrote:
> > Would have probably made a HUD for that if I was doing it,
>
> HUDs came out about a month after I gave up. :-)
>
Ah..
> > pay to "upload" the result to SL. Thought it would be a nice solution t
o
> > something I considered doing, but... What a fracking pain.
>
> Strange. I read on their blog recently you could just use Bryce to make
> some geometry and use it. Maybe I misunderstood, or the article wasn't
> completely clear.
>
Maybe you could. Bryce may actually export the correct sort of tri-color
png file needed to do it. I will have to look at that.
> > Things are improving though, especially now that the client in open, bu
t
> > there are just some things that are damn stupid still, and no idea when
> > they might be fixed.
>
> Yeah. Like I said, interesting idea, suboptimal execution. At some
> point, someone will get it right and eat their lunch.
>
Well, they spent a lot more time thinking about how to get the data to
and from the client and run sims on servers, than they did making the
client work. I would have imho, done things more the other way around
(or found someone that had a clue to work on the front end, while I
worked on the back).
--
void main () {
if version = "Vista" {
call slow_by_half();
call DRM_everything();
}
call functional_code();
}
else
call crash_windows();
}
<A HREF='http://www.daz3d.com/index.php?refid=16130551'>Get 3D Models,
3D Content, and 3D Software at DAZ3D!</A>
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Patrick Elliott wrote:
> Well, they spent a lot more time thinking about how to get the data to
> and from the client and run sims on servers, than they did making the
> client work. I would have imho, done things more the other way around
> (or found someone that had a clue to work on the front end, while I
> worked on the back).
No question it's a difficult problem. Making a 3D world with physics
that you can have multiple players manipulating stuff they themselves
created and wrote the interaction code for? Awesome.
Business model where you're actually selling what costs you money and
enlisting the aid of people paying you to create more value? Awesome.
It's just really hard to program some sorts of things because you *have*
to deal with the physics, and their security model sucks. Everything is
independent once you create it - you can't have two parts of one object
communicate with each other except by actually talking out loud within
earshot of the other part. There's no simulation of "wiring" or "radio"
or anything (I know about the channels - not the same thing), and things
have to move by actually moving at some fixed maximum speed. Plus, as I
said, since they're independent, there's no good error recovery. You
can't, for example, make a button on a machine that changes a picture
from a plus sign to a circle when you push it and also causes some other
object to run a script without the player being able to overhear the two
items whispering back and forth.
Plus, to prevent abuse, they had to make it a PITA to affect any player
with any sorts of restrictions on what they could do. They should have
had a mode where you get prompted once "can I take over your character?"
If so, then the script can do whatever it needs until you issue some GUI
command like "take me home", at which point you go back to the state you
were in when you gave permission to the script. *Then* you could do cool
kinds of interactive fiction/story, rather than just having interactive
environments.
That's why the vast majority of everything interactive is either dance
balls or vending machines selling dance balls.
I wanted to build a jumpman type game, but there was no way to make it
work - no way to set the weight of the character, or keep them from
flying or setting teleport points, or etc.
Altho some of the costumes were really awesome. :-)
--
Darren New / San Diego, CA, USA (PST)
"That's pretty. Where's that?"
"It's the Age of Channelwood."
"We should go there on vacation some time."
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In article <4819e1c6$1@news.povray.org>, dne### [at] sanrrcom says...
> Patrick Elliott wrote:
> > Well, they spent a lot more time thinking about how to get the data to
> > and from the client and run sims on servers, than they did making the
> > client work. I would have imho, done things more the other way around
> > (or found someone that had a clue to work on the front end, while I
> > worked on the back).
>
> It's just really hard to program some sorts of things because you *have*
> to deal with the physics, and their security model sucks. Everything is
> independent once you create it - you can't have two parts of one object
> communicate with each other except by actually talking out loud within
> earshot of the other part. There's no simulation of "wiring" or "radio"
> or anything (I know about the channels - not the same thing), and things
> have to move by actually moving at some fixed maximum speed. Plus, as I
> said, since they're independent, there's no good error recovery. You
> can't, for example, make a button on a machine that changes a picture
> from a plus sign to a circle when you push it and also causes some other
> object to run a script without the player being able to overhear the two
> items whispering back and forth.
>
You have been out for a while then. lol For example, the stargates have
three prims that do things, at minimum, some have at least 6 others, and
they do talk to each other "without" you hearing them chat at all. Not
sure the maximum speed thing is a problem any more either. I am not sure
if error handling is possible yet, but there is a "script error" window,
for when things fail. Just not sure if it works internally to the script
too. I think a fair number of these things where corrected along with
the adding of huds and menus, where you obviously don't want the
hud/menu "talking" to the item to make it do anything. Again, using the
stargate as an example, you can either tell the gate "/d SGC", or, if
you know the address and there is a DHD there, you can actually click
the buttons on the DHD. Each one, without whispering or showing visible
text at all, will send data to a script, which then lights the panel for
that, and if you have 6 lit and press the center button, it will attempt
to "dial" that, again, talking to the gate, without you seeing anything
at all, other than the gate saying, "Dialing SGC". Note, this is also,
somehow, linked to a DB on Alpha Fox's website, which keeps track of
active gates, so that when you dial the address, it knows where the gate
in that "region" is, and can send the gates event horizon a "location".
When you click on the horizon, you get the map location shown for where
the gate is, and can then teleport. Supposedly there is an up and coming
script function that will also allow llteleportagent, which will just
teleport you direct, so you would just detect collision with the event
horizon and have it go "llteleportagent(123,456,789)", or something like
that.
But the limitations you are talking about... Don't exist anymore.
Hmm. Mind you, the communication between them "may" still be talking,
but if so, its like channel -900000 or something, so, its hidden from
view for anyone that can't "see" the channel in question.
Mind you, however it "does" work, there must be some bugs. Tried to
install a script to have the event horizon automatically give me a map
link, so I could come "close" to what its supposed to do, but either the
existing script in the object messed it up, or it just doesn't work
right. :(
> Plus, to prevent abuse, they had to make it a PITA to affect any player
> with any sorts of restrictions on what they could do. They should have
> had a mode where you get prompted once "can I take over your character?"
> If so, then the script can do whatever it needs until you issue some GUI
> command like "take me home", at which point you go back to the state you
> were in when you gave permission to the script. *Then* you could do cool
> kinds of interactive fiction/story, rather than just having interactive
> environments.
>
You mean, like a pose stand. Bought a swim override recently that way,
you click "pose" on the menu, it moves you up onto the platform and
places you in the right position, then starts the animation. Some of
them will "ask" if you want to allow certain things too. When you want
to leave it you just use the menu, or a button at the bottom of the
screen, which says "stand up", works just like the pose balls, but with
more control. There is also huds like the Zhao which store overrides for
your motion, so you can have better walks, etc. You drop them into the
device, change some settings in the note card in there, then wear it,
click load, and now you don't walk like everyone else does. It can
override all of them. The only gripe I have is that it takes over your
keys, so if you also wear one of the "flight assist" devices, which do
the same, then clicking "release keys" to remover the assist also kills
your animation overrides. Sigh...
> That's why the vast majority of everything interactive is either dance
> balls or vending machines selling dance balls.
>
> I wanted to build a jumpman type game, but there was no way to make it
> work - no way to set the weight of the character, or keep them from
> flying or setting teleport points, or etc.
>
You can now set an area to disallow flying, as well as preventing
teleports.
I think you would find that while there is a lot the same as you
remember, there is a *lot* that is different too now.
--
void main () {
if version = "Vista" {
call slow_by_half();
call DRM_everything();
}
call functional_code();
}
else
call crash_windows();
}
<A HREF='http://www.daz3d.com/index.php?refid=16130551'>Get 3D Models,
3D Content, and 3D Software at DAZ3D!</A>
Post a reply to this message
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Patrick Elliott wrote:
> You have been out for a while then. lol For example, the stargates have
> three prims that do things, at minimum, some have at least 6 others, and
> they do talk to each other "without" you hearing them chat at all.
Possibly. It's possible to "whisper" on a separate channel, but it's
also possible that anyone nearby can hear the whisper *if* they listen
on that channel. That might be how they're talking.
> sure the maximum speed thing is a problem any more either. I am not sure
> if error handling is possible yet, but there is a "script error" window,
> for when things fail.
Well, sure. That's unhelpful when you want the game to (say) show the
gun as overheating when it can't create new bullets or something.
> Each one, without whispering or showing visible
> text at all, will send data to a script, which then lights the panel for
> that, and if you have 6 lit and press the center button, it will attempt
> to "dial" that, again, talking to the gate, without you seeing anything
> at all, other than the gate saying, "Dialing SGC".
Probably talking over channels, of which there are 2^15 or something if
I remember. If you knew which it was using, you could probably overhear
it talking. Definitely not good for things like poker tables talking to
the cards and the pot.
> Note, this is also,
> somehow, linked to a DB on Alpha Fox's website, which keeps track of
> active gates, so that when you dial the address, it knows where the gate
> in that "region" is, and can send the gates event horizon a "location".
Most likely email. Or at least that's all that was available last I
looked. That's also how you get information between components if
they're too far apart to hear each other talking.
> But the limitations you are talking about... Don't exist anymore.
OK.
> Hmm. Mind you, the communication between them "may" still be talking,
> but if so, its like channel -900000 or something, so, its hidden from
> view for anyone that can't "see" the channel in question.
That's what I mean. If you know the channel, you can hear it (which is
*bad* for a game where money is an actual component), and if the parts
are too far apart, suddenly you have to switch to an entirely new
communication mechanism. If you have a button at one side of the sim
that opens a door at the other side of the sim, you actually have to
talk via email between them, because you can't "shout" loud enough even
on a channel. Makes something like Jumpman difficult.
Plus, you have to listen for properly structured "sentences" and parse
them out to understand what to do.
> Mind you, however it "does" work, there must be some bugs. Tried to
> install a script to have the event horizon automatically give me a map
> link, so I could come "close" to what its supposed to do, but either the
> existing script in the object messed it up, or it just doesn't work
> right. :(
That was my other complaint. Plus, "community-supported wiki" is really
geek-speak for "we can't be bothered to document our system."
> override all of them. The only gripe I have is that it takes over your
> keys, so if you also wear one of the "flight assist" devices, which do
> the same, then clicking "release keys" to remover the assist also kills
> your animation overrides. Sigh...
Yeah. Stuff like that.
> You can now set an area to disallow flying, as well as preventing
> teleports.
You could do that before, but only if you actually own the land where
you set up the game. And I realized the physics would make it
challenging, too, when someone decides they're really big or really
small, for exmaple.
> I think you would find that while there is a lot the same as you
> remember, there is a *lot* that is different too now.
I'm sure it has improved greatly, yes. Do I have time to keep up with
such things for fun? Sadly not. :-)
--
Darren New / San Diego, CA, USA (PST)
"That's pretty. Where's that?"
"It's the Age of Channelwood."
"We should go there on vacation some time."
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