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Jim Charter <jrc### [at] msn com> wrote:
> One is deciding when it is valid to view loneliness as an affliction
> that happens somehow *to* the person and when solitude is actually the
> preference of the person and the result of their own decisions. And
> then how to arrive at a coherent 'view' of the condition that can be
> shared by the affected person, subjectively, and at the same time by an
> 'objective' or at least 'outside' observer.
It is a problem when the afflicted person suffers from the situation
(in other words, the loneliness is not a conscious decision) and feels
that he is unable to fix the problem even though he would want to.
One reason for the latter may be lack of social skills and experience
at socializing. This can be a self-sustaining problem: Lack of experience
and skills stops the person from getting them through experience because
he is unable to properly socialize, get new acquaintances, and so on.
The person may be unable to reach out to others, and even if sometimes
others reach out to him, he may be unable to reciprocate, and the social
situation might not go anywhere beyond just a short and formal conversation.
(It often feels like people just give up too easily. Maybe they think
"that guy clearly doesn't want to get involved, I'll just let him be",
even though it might not be anything like that. It's not necessarily that
he wants to be left alone, it may be that he doesn't know how to express
himself in such a social situation, giving the wrong impression that he's
not interested.)
--
- Warp
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My new idea-- forgive me if this is too trite of advice-- is that "internet"
socialization feeds "real world" loneliness.
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"gregjohn" <pte### [at] yahoocom> wrote:
> My new idea-- forgive me if this is too trite of advice-- is that "internet"
> socialization feeds "real world" loneliness.
yes:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/2008/jan/14/facebook
But it's because:
http://www.feedmeastraycat.net/uploads/dilbert071024.gif
http://dilbert.com/strips/comic/2008-11-21/
and also:
http://www.mattcutts.com/images/duty_calls.png
:D
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On Sat, 30 Jan 2010 11:14:28 -0500, Warp wrote:
> One reason for the latter may be lack of social skills and experience
> at socializing. This can be a self-sustaining problem: Lack of
> experience and skills stops the person from getting them through
> experience because he is unable to properly socialize, get new
> acquaintances, and so on. The person may be unable to reach out to
> others, and even if sometimes others reach out to him, he may be unable
> to reciprocate, and the social situation might not go anywhere beyond
> just a short and formal conversation.
Very much so - I used to have problems like this myself; it is possible
to break the cycle, but it's not easy to do. What I did was forced
myself into situations where I had to socialize; I ask people in the
office if they want to grab lunch (that's a big one for me), went to my
5th high school reunion, and also got involved in doing presentations at
trade shows and eventually into teaching classes.
From the reunion, well, that was a disaster, actually; I ended up talking
to a girl who was in my English class and she asked what I'd been up to.
My first book had just been published, and I told her that; she was
interested and asked what it was about. Rather than say "it's about
troubleshooting Novell's NDS" (which she clearly wouldn't have
understood), I said it was about computers. Her response was "Oh. I
hate computers." and that killed the conversation. In retrospect, I
wasn't the one lacking social skills in that situation.
But I also realised how few people I went to high school with that I
actually knew.
I still struggle with it from time to time. I've never been diagnosed as
having any sort of social "disorder", but I was always a loner and had a
very small group of friends. When I was in elementary school, it was bad
enough that I had some sessions with the school therapist (which I had
actually forgotten about until just now).
Jim
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Jim Henderson <nos### [at] nospamcom> wrote:
> Very much so - I used to have problems like this myself; it is possible
> to break the cycle, but it's not easy to do.
As for me, I don't think I'm very shy. Not anymore at least. (Well, it
depends on the definition of "shy", but if we define it as getting nervous
about interacting with people, I don't have a problem with that.)
In the past I was much shier. I used to hate eg. making telephone calls
to unknown people. Not anymore, as I have got completely over that. Nowadays
I don't have the slightest problem in calling anybody for whatever reason,
especially if it's about something I need (for example calling my ISP to
ask something, or whatever). In fact, rather ironically for a computer nerd
like me, I often even *prefer* calling by phone rather than writing an email
because many things are much faster to resolve by phone because the
necessary conversation can be performed in real-time. (Part of this is that
I have grown tired of people, especially ones working for companies, not
actually reading the email and replying with completely useless generic
answers, often ones which I have already specifically mentioned in the
email; when you actually *tell* the person it's much harder to ignore.)
Likewise if I need to go in person somewhere, I haven't had a problem with
that in a long time (even though in the past I was shier about it). Eg. if
I have to go to some office or whatever to deal with something in person
(eg. sign papers or whatever), I just go, no problem.
However, all that is completely different from actually being able to
socialize and engage in small talk. And it's enormously different from
going to an unknown person with no specific reason, just to socialize.
And yes, especially if that other person happens to be female.
I don't know why, but for some reason it seems that people have stopped
approaching me as well, in social situations. When I was much younger
(early 20's or such) people were much eager to start sporadic small talk
for no specific reason than to socialize. Nowadays that just doesn't happen.
I don't even remember when was the last time that someone wanted to socialize
out of the blue with me in a social situation.
I wonder if it's the age. Is looking well over 30 some kind of natural
repellent for people? They are not interested in a mid-aged man as much
as they are in a younger one?
If there is indeed such a psychological phenomenon, it only aggravates
the chronic loneliness problem.
--
- Warp
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Warp wrote:
I used to have all those problems too, yah.
> However, all that is completely different from actually being able to
> socialize and engage in small talk.
Here's something you may be missing. (I didn't read the whole thread, I
fear, so this might already have been said.)
Small talk works *way* better when you listen instead of speak. Everyone
likes to talk about themselves. So until you find common ground, simply ask
the other person questions about themselves, let them talk about whatever
they want, and listen for something you can contribute. Don't be thinking
about what you're going to *say* next, but instead think about what you're
going to ask them next. Of course, once you've talked to the person long
enough to get past the "I never met you before" stage, it's easier, but you
want to get past that initial awkwardness of not having anything to talk
about. But for some it takes a conscious effort to learn to do this.
When you think about it, it's kind of like being a salesman. "Tell me all
about yourself, and I'll listen until I hear something in common, namely a
problem you have that our products can cure."
Also, I've found it's amazingly helpful to look people in the eye during a
conversation. It's something nerds tend not to do. Not only watch the
person's face, but actually peer directly into one pupil or the other. It's
a little creepy the first time or two, but it really makes a difference.
> I wonder if it's the age. Is looking well over 30 some kind of natural
> repellent for people? They are not interested in a mid-aged man as much
> as they are in a younger one?
I think part of it may be that you're getting to the age where most people
have children, and if you don't have children, there's less to talk about,
because children pretty much fill up your entire life.
--
Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
Forget "focus follows mouse." When do
I get "focus follows gaze"?
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Warp wrote:
> In fact, rather ironically for a computer nerd
> like me, I often even *prefer* calling by phone rather than writing an email
> because many things are much faster to resolve by phone because the
> necessary conversation can be performed in real-time.
I really hate making phone calls - but I have to agree with you that
it's usually far, far more efficient for sorting out anything that
requires some kind of complex negotiation.
(Alternatively, for something that requires conveying intricate
information, writing tends to be better...)
--
http://blog.orphi.me.uk/
http://www.zazzle.com/MathematicalOrchid*
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On Mon, 01 Feb 2010 12:25:23 -0500, Warp wrote:
> Jim Henderson <nos### [at] nospamcom> wrote:
>> Very much so - I used to have problems like this myself; it is possible
>> to break the cycle, but it's not easy to do.
>
> As for me, I don't think I'm very shy. Not anymore at least. (Well, it
> depends on the definition of "shy", but if we define it as getting
> nervous about interacting with people, I don't have a problem with
> that.)
I don't know that it's "nervous" per se - more "hesitant". I tend to
dislike using the phone (I often will send my phone to voice mail rather
than take a call - though usually that's because I'm in the middle of
something and don't want to lose my train of thought). Personally, I
prefer written communications because I have a chance to think about what
I'm going to say and to research my answer.
I really hate when people leave me a voice mail that is nothing more than
name, number, and "call me". I tend to reply via e-mail to those if I
know the person's e-mail address.
> Likewise if I need to go in person somewhere, I haven't had a problem
> with
> that in a long time (even though in the past I was shier about it). Eg.
> if I have to go to some office or whatever to deal with something in
> person (eg. sign papers or whatever), I just go, no problem.
>
> However, all that is completely different from actually being able to
> socialize and engage in small talk. And it's enormously different from
> going to an unknown person with no specific reason, just to socialize.
> And yes, especially if that other person happens to be female.
It really is a different situation, absolutely. It's like a coworker of
mine said to me back when I was teaching - he described himself as an
"extroverted introvert" - because when teaching, his personality actually
changes pretty significantly. I found that as well for myself - I often
am a completely different person in front of a class or when doing a
presentation. I think it's about control, really, for me. I always had
trouble getting people back from break when teaching, but once I got in
my groove, I could just teach and people would listen to me and interact
in the class.
I even intentionally developed labs that involved discussion only; the
guy who taught the class after me dropped them because he wasn't sure how
to run them, but they worked very well for me - I think partly because I
had significant hands-on experience with the technology I was teaching -
that always helps with that sort of situation.
> I don't know why, but for some reason it seems that people have
> stopped
> approaching me as well, in social situations. When I was much younger
> (early 20's or such) people were much eager to start sporadic small talk
> for no specific reason than to socialize. Nowadays that just doesn't
> happen. I don't even remember when was the last time that someone wanted
> to socialize out of the blue with me in a social situation.
I don't remember the last time that happened to me either, but that could
largely be because I don't do that kind of social activity very often.
If I'm out now, it's with my family and not by myself (or with coworkers
and not by myself if it's a work-related function).
> I wonder if it's the age. Is looking well over 30 some kind of natural
> repellent for people? They are not interested in a mid-aged man as much
> as they are in a younger one?
As Darren said, it might be children-related, because they do take up a
lot of time. I started late with my stepson (he was 9), and it's still
amazing to me how much of my time was involved in school and other
activities - and I didn't mind it at all.
> If there is indeed such a psychological phenomenon, it only aggravates
> the chronic loneliness problem.
I could see that, yes.
Jim
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On Mon, 01 Feb 2010 20:20:01 +0000, Orchid XP v8 wrote:
> Warp wrote:
>
>> In fact, rather ironically for a computer nerd like me, I often even
>> *prefer* calling by phone rather than writing an email because many
>> things are much faster to resolve by phone because the necessary
>> conversation can be performed in real-time.
>
> I really hate making phone calls - but I have to agree with you that
> it's usually far, far more efficient for sorting out anything that
> requires some kind of complex negotiation.
>
> (Alternatively, for something that requires conveying intricate
> information, writing tends to be better...)
One of the things I find a lot of geeks do, though, is tend to go into a
lot of unnecessary detail. I've long had people joke about my inability
to write a short e-mail - and have made jokes about it myself.
I had an e-mail earlier today from a developer I work with who wrote a
single run-on sentence about a two-line code change he was making; it
wasn't clear to me what it was he was intending to accomplish with this
(though I could - and did - guess, I've found it's best to be clear up
front before coding begins with this developer), so I restated it back to
him with "do I understand that this will [....]" and he sent me a one-
word reply: YES.
My point is that sometimes it's more effective to say less. I've even
had someone ask for input (as part of a group discussion) about becoming
an executive (long story there and the topic isn't really relevant to
this discussion). He'd composed a long e-mail to the CEO of the company
in question and posted it in a private discussion area for comment. He
acknowledged that it was long, but he was trying to decide between
brevity and explaining his ideas fully. When talking with executives,
especially in writing, brevity is important. They're busy people (or
they believe they are), so getting to the point quickly is critical. If
they want more detail, they'll ask.
That's something I find is generally true about people, executive or not.
Jim
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On Mon, 01 Feb 2010 10:09:37 -0800, Darren New wrote:
> Small talk works *way* better when you listen instead of speak. Everyone
> likes to talk about themselves. So until you find common ground, simply
> ask the other person questions about themselves, let them talk about
> whatever they want, and listen for something you can contribute. Don't
> be thinking about what you're going to *say* next, but instead think
> about what you're going to ask them next. Of course, once you've talked
> to the person long enough to get past the "I never met you before"
> stage, it's easier, but you want to get past that initial awkwardness of
> not having anything to talk about. But for some it takes a conscious
> effort to learn to do this.
I have a very good friend in the UK who made a comment about this, and
it's absolutely true. People LOVE to talk about themselves, because it's
what they know the best. Ask a couple of questions - "So, what do you
think about this weather we're having?" or "Did you catch the game last
night?" or anything starting with "What do you think about ..." will
generally get a conversation going.
Even if you don't care about the answer, that's a great way to get people
to start talking.
And I agree with your comment about looking people in the eye while
talking to them; maybe not a constant thing (that gets creepy after a
while), but people do respond to being looked at.
Jim
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