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From: Jeremy "UncleHoot" Praay
Subject: Arguing with government bureaucrats... (rant)
Date: 12 Oct 2009 14:09:46
Message: <4ad370ea$1@news.povray.org>
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...is like winning the special olympics.
I'm retarded.
I've been down this road before, so I certainly knew what to expect. But
every once in awhile, it would be nice to be surprised. But instead, it
always seems to be an excercise in futility and frustration.
In an earlier post, I mentioned the installation of a "Michigan Left Turn"
on a major roadway in my area, and how it essentially makes it impossible
for a bicycle to cross the road. So, instead of just griping to my friends
and other bicyclists, I decided to actually email the Michigan Department of
Transportation (and subsequently gripe here too. ;-) ).
"What is a Michigan Left Turn?"
http://www.michiganhighways.org/indepth/michigan_left.html
The difference in this case is that the cross-traffic portion has been
completely eliminated. Where there used to be a place to directly cross the
road, whether by foot, automobile, or bicycle, there is now only a ditch. To
get across the road, you need to turn right, travel 1/4 mile, turn left,
travel 1/4 mile, then turn right. They have done studies that show that this
cuts down on automobile accidents, and whether that's true or not, I don't
argue that with them. In my discussion, I tried several different ways of
making the point that they have eliminated a safe passage for bicyclists and
pedestrians. Their response? "...given the high traffic counts and traffic
speeds I am not aware of any safe way to have an at grade pedestrians
crossing. In the absence of non-motorized pathways bicycles are expected to
use the roadway as motorist vehicles do." How about a path in the median of
the road? Like there used to be before it was replaced with a ditch?
So now bicyclists are expected to pedal down a busy road, in traffic, for
1/4 mile in each direction, on a road that they admit isn't even safe for a
pedestrian to walk across. If you're a 15 year-old boy, are you going to
take the direct (through the ditch) route, or travel 1/2 mile out of your
way?
Sigh...
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On 10/12/2009 2:14 PM, Jeremy "UncleHoot" Praay wrote:
> If you're a 15 year-old boy, are you going to
> take the direct (through the ditch) route, or travel 1/2 mile out of your
> way?
>
> Sigh...
Most 15 year-old boys could use the exercise.
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On 10/12/2009 11:50 PM, SharkD wrote:
> On 10/12/2009 2:14 PM, Jeremy "UncleHoot" Praay wrote:
>> If you're a 15 year-old boy, are you going to
>> take the direct (through the ditch) route, or travel 1/2 mile out of your
>> way?
>>
>> Sigh...
>
> Most 15 year-old boys could use the exercise.
Ooops. Hit 'Send' to quick.
Seriously, bicycling and walking along busy roads generally sucks all
across the US. What I hate most is when a sidewalk will suddenly end and
you are forced to have to walk in the grass or across people's lawns.
There's a path I sometimes walk to the doctor's office. 75% of the way
there's a sidewalk. Until about half way there there are sidewalks on
both sides. Then, it suddenly switches to only one side (the other side
in my case) of the road for no reason. At about 3/4 of the way the
sidewalk stops completely, only to begin again about a 100 yards from
the hospital (at which point it switches to the other side of the road
again!!).
People's yards where there are no sidewalks look like crap from being
walked over all the time. I don't know why the residents don't decide to
install sidewalks. Maybe it's to serve as a "negro barrier zone" between
neighboring, more populated areas.
-Mike
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From: Jeremy "UncleHoot" Praay
Subject: Re: Arguing with government bureaucrats... (rant)
Date: 13 Oct 2009 09:16:57
Message: <4ad47dc9$1@news.povray.org>
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"SharkD" <mik### [at] gmail com> wrote in message
news:4ad3fc0c$1@news.povray.org...
>
> Seriously, bicycling and walking along busy roads generally sucks all
> across the US. What I hate most is when a sidewalk will suddenly end and
> you are forced to have to walk in the grass or across people's lawns.
I really can't complain too much about bicycling in my area. There aren't
very many paved roads, but the ones that are paved are generally well cared
for. And if you take time to plan your route, it's not too difficult to
avoid the major roads. Obviously this section not withstanding. And that's
what really frustrates me. Simply crossing the busy road is no longer an
option.
> There's a path I sometimes walk to the doctor's office. 75% of the way
> there's a sidewalk. Until about half way there there are sidewalks on both
> sides. Then, it suddenly switches to only one side (the other side in my
> case) of the road for no reason. At about 3/4 of the way the sidewalk
> stops completely, only to begin again about a 100 yards from the hospital
> (at which point it switches to the other side of the road again!!).
>
> People's yards where there are no sidewalks look like crap from being
> walked over all the time. I don't know why the residents don't decide to
> install sidewalks. Maybe it's to serve as a "negro barrier zone" between
> neighboring, more populated areas.
>
> -Mike
I some, if not most, cities/towns, the sidewalk is the responsibility of the
home-owner. I've been in places where it cuts out for two yards, then
starts back up, then cuts out, then starts up, then cuts out.
As I said in an earlier post, the US is very car-centric. In spite of
feigned appreciation for alternative forms of transportation, no one is
really interested. "Why do we need that? Don't you have a car?" And on
that note, I don't ride my bike as a means of transportation. I ride for
pleasure and exercise, as do most bicyclists. They probably understand
that, and obviously, that doesn't help my case.
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> The difference in this case is that the cross-traffic portion has been
> completely eliminated. Where there used to be a place to directly cross
> the road, whether by foot, automobile, or bicycle, there is now only a
> ditch.
> "...given the high traffic counts and traffic speeds I am not aware of any
> safe way to have an at grade pedestrians crossing.
Usually you just stick a green "walk" light that comes on when the cars have
red.
Is the new ditch impassable on foot? If you could pass it would it be
possible to cross each carriage-way while the light for the cars is on red?
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On 10/13/2009 9:21 AM, Jeremy "UncleHoot" Praay wrote:
> I really can't complain too much about bicycling in my area. There aren't
> very many paved roads, but the ones that are paved are generally well cared
> for. And if you take time to plan your route, it's not too difficult to
> avoid the major roads. Obviously this section not withstanding. And that's
> what really frustrates me. Simply crossing the busy road is no longer an
> option.
In the last few years my city has started adding bike lanes on certain
roads. However, I feel these are also geared more towards recreational
riders, as they only add to convenience if you intend to ride for long
distances.
-Mike
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From: Jeremy "UncleHoot" Praay
Subject: Re: Arguing with government bureaucrats... (rant)
Date: 13 Oct 2009 15:04:37
Message: <4ad4cf45$1@news.povray.org>
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"scott" <sco### [at] scott com> wrote in message
news:4ad48adc$1@news.povray.org...
>
> Is the new ditch impassable on foot? If you could pass it would it be
> possible to cross each carriage-way while the light for the cars is on
> red?
>
For the purposes of this discussion, I modified an existing digram from the
Web (in blatant disregard for copyright :-p ):
http://www.beantoad.com/newimages/michigan_left.gif
It's not impassable, but it is is a ditch, not mowed, and sometimes
containis water. There is no stop light, and never will be. It's the type
of road where cars aren't supposed to have to stop. Ever. But it's also
not a limited access freeway, by any means. It's just a divided hi-way.
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From: scott
Subject: Re: Arguing with government bureaucrats... (rant)
Date: 14 Oct 2009 03:21:20
Message: <4ad57bf0@news.povray.org>
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> For the purposes of this discussion, I modified an existing digram from
> the Web (in blatant disregard for copyright :-p ):
> http://www.beantoad.com/newimages/michigan_left.gif
>
> It's not impassable, but it is is a ditch, not mowed, and sometimes
> containis water. There is no stop light, and never will be.
Oh I see, so the cars joining from the bottom of your diagram just have to
wait for a big enough gap in the traffic to join? Sounds pretty hard if you
want to immediately get over to the left lane with everyone else doing, err,
hang on what is the speed limit on this road?
> It's the type of road where cars aren't supposed to have to stop. Ever.
> But it's also not a limited access freeway, by any means.
I think the difference here is that we don't have those sorts of roads
(where the cars never stop) in cities. Outside of cities, sure, but they
would have a speed limit of 70 mph and never have any roads joining without
proper on/off ramps, and definitely no cars ever leaving/joining from the
fast lane. Within cities roads always have stop lights every so often,
which gives plenty of opportunity for pedestrians and cyclists to cross.
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From: John VanSickle
Subject: Re: Arguing with government bureaucrats... (rant)
Date: 15 Oct 2009 07:41:52
Message: <4ad70a80$1@news.povray.org>
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Jeremy "UncleHoot" Praay wrote:
> So now bicyclists are expected to pedal down a busy road, in traffic, for
> 1/4 mile in each direction, on a road that they admit isn't even safe for a
> pedestrian to walk across. If you're a 15 year-old boy, are you going to
> take the direct (through the ditch) route, or travel 1/2 mile out of your
> way?
Nothing will happen until five or six people get killed trying to cross
at that specific spot.
Of course, with the way the Michigan economy is going, there may not be
any motorists in a few years...
Regards,
John
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From: Jeremy "UncleHoot" Praay
Subject: Re: Arguing with government bureaucrats... (rant)
Date: 15 Oct 2009 16:26:24
Message: <4ad78570$1@news.povray.org>
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"John VanSickle" <evi### [at] hotmail com> wrote in message
news:4ad70a80$1@news.povray.org...
> Jeremy "UncleHoot" Praay wrote:
>
> Nothing will happen
(fixed your post)
> Of course, with the way the Michigan economy is going, there may not be
> any motorists in a few years...
It does suck right now. I'm glad to have a good job, that's for sure.
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