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On Fri, 15 May 2009 23:15:04 -0300, nemesis wrote:
> Jim Henderson wrote:
>> On Fri, 15 May 2009 22:16:51 -0300, nemesis wrote:
>>
>>> If the plot in the Watchmen entry can't be taken for granted, they'd
>>> better just drop the whole entry altogether.
>>
>> Well, I don't know the plot. I'm sure I'm not the only one.
>>
>> I don't know for sure, but it might well be an administrative thing -
>> they say they can't accept other wikipedia pages as references because
>> you could end up with a situation where two articles make assertions
>> and reference each other (and only each other), and since they've said
>> "dem's da rules", they can't let it go because it opens the door for
>> other abuses.
>
> Ok, I can accept that. I just can't accept that they may allow
> references in the discussion page for Fantastic Four but not for
> Watchmen. Something gotta hurt, I guess...
<shrug> It's their system, they can moderate it and manage it how they
like....
Jim
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On Fri, 15 May 2009 23:07:34 -0300, nemesis wrote:
> Darren New wrote:
>> nemesis wrote:
>>> I'm just saying there that "The incredibles" has a very similar plot
>>> to Watchmen
>>
>> No, you're saying Incredible was *inspired* by Watchmen, not just
>> similar.
>>
>> You would need to show that Brad Bird, for example, was aware of
>> Watchmen and knew the plot when he was making the Incredibles, as a
>> minimum.
>
> How could he not be aware of this classic? You know Alan Moore was
> featured in a Simpsons episode? You know Brad Bird was creative
> consultant to the Simpsons? No, I don't know if the episode is from
> before or after he left, what I do know is:
>
> * a super-hero world where heroes are banned is by itself a very
> non-conventional plot for a super-hero story (at least until Watchmen
> got it done)
> * the plot is kicked off when an older hero goes missing (and is found
> to be dead)
> * the villain threatens the world with a fake attack so that he can be
> "heroic"
> * the threat is a huge, monocular monster with tentacles * the monster
> was raised in a remote Island * the dead hero was killed because of what
> the plans he uncovered in the Island
> * cape is bad for your health
>
> If that's not enough for a link, I'll eat my underwear...
Get your fork out, apparently it isn't. There's nothing *substantiated*
there, just a bunch of guesses.
Star Wars, The Belgariad, and Dune, and Magician:Apprentice (and its
sequels) all have a common plot - the world is in trouble and then saved
by a messiah character. That doesn't mean they were inspired by the
Bible (or that any of their authors read the Bible or were even inspired
by it).
Jim
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On Fri, 15 May 2009 23:09:46 -0300, nemesis wrote:
> I don't think that's mere coincidence.
To borrow a line from A Few Good Men, "It doesn't matter what I believe,
it only matters what I can prove!"
Jim
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Jim Henderson wrote:
> On Fri, 15 May 2009 23:07:34 -0300, nemesis wrote:
>
>> Darren New wrote:
>>> nemesis wrote:
>>>> I'm just saying there that "The incredibles" has a very similar plot
>>>> to Watchmen
>>> No, you're saying Incredible was *inspired* by Watchmen, not just
>>> similar.
>>>
>>> You would need to show that Brad Bird, for example, was aware of
>>> Watchmen and knew the plot when he was making the Incredibles, as a
>>> minimum.
>> How could he not be aware of this classic? You know Alan Moore was
>> featured in a Simpsons episode? You know Brad Bird was creative
>> consultant to the Simpsons? No, I don't know if the episode is from
>> before or after he left, what I do know is:
>>
>> * a super-hero world where heroes are banned is by itself a very
>> non-conventional plot for a super-hero story (at least until Watchmen
>> got it done)
>> * the plot is kicked off when an older hero goes missing (and is found
>> to be dead)
>> * the villain threatens the world with a fake attack so that he can be
>> "heroic"
>> * the threat is a huge, monocular monster with tentacles * the monster
>> was raised in a remote Island * the dead hero was killed because of what
>> the plans he uncovered in the Island
>> * cape is bad for your health
>>
>> If that's not enough for a link, I'll eat my underwear...
>
> Get your fork out, apparently it isn't. There's nothing *substantiated*
> there, just a bunch of guesses.
>
> Star Wars, The Belgariad, and Dune, and Magician:Apprentice (and its
> sequels) all have a common plot - the world is in trouble and then saved
> by a messiah character. That doesn't mean they were inspired by the
> Bible (or that any of their authors read the Bible or were even inspired
> by it).
Did you actually read what I wrote. It's not a generic set of plot
points, they are very specific and "awkward" set of plot points
identical in both works.
You may not be aware of it, but Watchmen is a very known super-hero
classic. It was also the only comic book in Time magazine's list of 100
most significant XX century books.
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Jim Henderson wrote:
> On Fri, 15 May 2009 23:09:46 -0300, nemesis wrote:
>
>> I don't think that's mere coincidence.
>
> To borrow a line from A Few Good Men, "It doesn't matter what I believe,
> it only matters what I can prove!"
Well, I certainly can prove nothing to people who've only seen a side of
the coin.
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"nemesis" <nam### [at] gmail com> wrote in message
news:4a0dd1e9@news.povray.org...
> I tried updating the wikipedia entry on The Incredibles with the
> following update:
>
> A more direct inspiration is the comic book masterpiece Watchmen, by
> Alan Moore and Dave Gibbons. In it, super-heroes are banned and living
> common life, a plot to secretly kill heroes is going on, there's a
> mysterious Island where a threatening menace is being created (not in
> the Watchmen movie though), the plan of the "villain" itself being to
> lie to people that they are under attack so that he can secretly realize
> his fantasy of being hero of the world. The main differences being that
> Watchmen's "villain" truly turns out to save the world by way of his
> machiavelic plan and that no hero is truly super: the only one with true
> superpower couldn't care less for mankind or living organisms. Even the
> "no cape" is from Watchmen, as one of the hooded crime busters of the
> past is shot to death as his cape gets entangled in a bank's revolving
> door. The Omnidroid closely resembles the organic life-form the
> Watchmen's "villain" has built, tentacles, monocular vision and size
> matching.
I know and care less than nothing about either the Incredibles or Watchmen,
but my 2 cents says the text above reads very much like an argument, not as
an encyclopedic entry. Maybe that's the contention. It's not an
encyclopedia's job to make a point (and no, some bad examples from Wikipedia
don't change this rule) but to document well established points. If you have
a reference, only a single sentence should suffice.
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somebody wrote:
> I know and care less than nothing about either the Incredibles or Watchmen,
> but my 2 cents says the text above reads very much like an argument, not as
> an encyclopedic entry. Maybe that's the contention. It's not an
> encyclopedia's job to make a point (and no, some bad examples from Wikipedia
> don't change this rule) but to document well established points. If you have
> a reference, only a single sentence should suffice.
may be. I'll try to rework it then...
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"nemesis" <nam### [at] nospam-gmailcom> wrote in message
news:4a0e1da3@news.povray.org...
> Darren New wrote:
> > You can say "the film shares plot points with Watchmen." I don't htink
> > you've justified "the film was inspired by Watchmen."
> A whole lot of very unconventional plot points. See my reply above.
>
> I don't think that's mere coincidence.
That's not an encyclopedic wording. You never want to read opinion pieces
from encycpedia authors, you don't even want to feel that there's a human
author behind an entry.
> Besides, I don't think Brad Bird would go on and admit a ripping like
that.
If there's no hard evidence or prior research, your option is to publish
your analysis somewhere respectable, and then add it to Wikipedia.
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somebody wrote:
> If there's no hard evidence or prior research, your option is to publish
> your analysis somewhere respectable, and then add it to Wikipedia.
So, those very distinct and unconventional plot points I listed offer
absolutely no evidence at all? The fact that Watchmen is one of the
most respectable and influential comics ever and we're talking here
about comics creators and animators who no doubt are aware of each other
works is of no relevancy either? Ok.
Anyway, this was not invention of mine, many other people who *know*
Watchmen saw the similarities. I was just pointing out them.
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nemesis wrote:
> Darren New wrote:
>> nemesis wrote:
>>> I'm just saying there that "The incredibles" has a very similar plot
>>> to Watchmen
>>
>> No, you're saying Incredible was *inspired* by Watchmen, not just
>> similar.
>>
>> You would need to show that Brad Bird, for example, was aware of
>> Watchmen and knew the plot when he was making the Incredibles, as a
>> minimum.
>
> How could he not be aware of this classic?
It doesn't matter. If you assert Bird was inspired, you would need to give a
reference to it. They're saying you are doing original research. I agree
with their opinion because the rest of your message is arguing that your
original research is plausible or even likely.
> what I do know is:
... a whole list of things which have nothing to do with Bird or his thought
processes.
> If that's not enough for a link, I'll eat my underwear...
I think it's enough for your link. That isn't the point.
Did you figure this link out yourself? Or did you read about it somewhere?
If the former, it's original research. If the latter, provide the citation.
It seems pretty easy to me. :-)
--
Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
There's no CD like OCD, there's no CD I knoooow!
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