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Let's consider that JHVH is the first mover, the effect with no cause,
because He has been around forever and was never created.
Now let's consider that JHVH created Man in His own image.
Doesn't that discredit the Watchmaker's argument?
I mean, if God modeled humans after God, then God has eyes, right? And if
God has eyes (and all those other irreducibly complex systems) the God
didn't create those systems.
So doesn't
1) God has always existed
2) God made Man in his Image
3) Man has Irreducibly Complex Systems
imply that irreducibly complex systems have always existed and didn't need
to be designed?
--
Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
Linux: Now bringing the quality and usability of
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"Darren New" <dne### [at] san rr com> wrote in message
news:4bcbc364$1@news.povray.org...
> Let's consider that JHVH is the first mover, the effect with no cause,
> because He has been around forever and was never created.
>
> Now let's consider that JHVH created Man in His own image.
>
> Doesn't that discredit the Watchmaker's argument?
>
> I mean, if God modeled humans after God, then God has eyes, right?
Not necessarily. If God has eyes (two, I assume, in the front of his head),
can I sneak up behind it? Wouldn't that limit his omniscience? And wouldn't
only having a couple of hundered billion neurons severely limit its
knowledge and ability?
Obviously, it doesn't make sense if one replaces the "image" with "physical
analogue". In fact, I don't think any major sects believe that God is
physical in the sense we come to understand it, so the whole "in his image"
business needs a deeper understanding (if you are religious) or is simply
just another nonsense (if not). Either way, the premise you start with is
not valid.
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somebody wrote:
> In fact, I don't think any major sects believe that God is
> physical in the sense we come to understand it,
Maybe not any more. Certainly when he was walking around the Garden looking
for Adam and Eve he was. And he wasn't omniscient or he wouldn't have been
calling out trying to find them. :-)
> so the whole "in his image" business needs a deeper understanding
Certainly. But then, if we aren't like him physically, and we weren't
created in his moral image, and we are still incapable of understanding how
he thinks, in what sense are we his image?
--
Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
Linux: Now bringing the quality and usability of
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Darren New escreveu:
> Let's consider that JHVH is the first mover, the effect with no cause,
> because He has been around forever and was never created.
>
> Now let's consider that JHVH created Man in His own image.
>
> Doesn't that discredit the Watchmaker's argument?
>
> I mean, if God modeled humans after God, then God has eyes, right? And
> if God has eyes (and all those other irreducibly complex systems) the
> God didn't create those systems.
Man was created in His own image, but you don't go telling eyes of
statues are the same as yours. ;)
--
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From: Patrick Elliott
Subject: Re: Another philosophical religious thought...
Date: 19 Apr 2010 15:13:09
Message: <4bccab45@news.povray.org>
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On 4/18/2010 7:43 PM, Darren New wrote:
> Let's consider that JHVH is the first mover, the effect with no cause,
> because He has been around forever and was never created.
>
> Now let's consider that JHVH created Man in His own image.
>
> Doesn't that discredit the Watchmaker's argument?
>
> I mean, if God modeled humans after God, then God has eyes, right? And
> if God has eyes (and all those other irreducibly complex systems) the
> God didn't create those systems.
>
> So doesn't
> 1) God has always existed
> 2) God made Man in his Image
> 3) Man has Irreducibly Complex Systems
> imply that irreducibly complex systems have always existed and didn't
> need to be designed?
>
>
Hmm. If you follow from your starting premise, maybe. The problem of
course that (3) is in error anyway. You can *get* irreducible systems,
without either needing them to be designed *or* previously existing.
Basically, lets say that:
GTG did something specific and unique, and so did GTT, but you can have
mutations, like GTGG, or GTTT, GTGT, or even GTTG, which work like their
original versions. So, lets say 's' counts as a stop. What you do is
start with GTTs, make a copy GTTsGTTs, then you mutate it a few
different ways:
GTTsGTGs
GTTsGTTGs
GGTsGTTs
The last one of those copies is defective, but you still have a working
copy anyway, and it allows for later getting: GTGTsGTTs But, the GTGs
version would be "irreducible", once other related genes become
dependent on that form, causing the GTGTs and GTGGs, etc. versions to
"break" the system.
The trick here is, if you get several of these tweaks, which are
inter-reliant, the *intermediary* versions may work with a larger number
of variations and errors than the final version. At some point though,
you are likely to run into dependency issues, where your GTGs, or
variation **must** have that combination it in, to work with the other
gene some place else, which underwent a similar change, and in the
process produced new behaviors/functions.
Of thousands of genes involving body plan, segmentation, symmetry, limb
formation, etc., all of them are derived from a relatives *small* number
of codes. In some cases the codes are nearly identical for the gene
that, say, makes fingers grow, but the transcription and developmental
code is different, producing a new pattern of growth. Other cases "both"
the transcription/development code *and* the control genes differ, but
they are still identifiably variations on existing genes, that do
similar things. Any irreducibility seems to come from a duplicate copy
changing, and linking up with other changes, to produce a unique result,
then undergoing subtractions, which fail to disable the new effect, but
which render reversal to an earlier form impossible.
Given that, they neither could have previously existed, nor is adding a
designer anything other than adding an unnecessary complication, unless
you can present grounds to show that one is doing it.
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void main () {
If Schrödingers_cat is alive or version > 98 {
if version = "Vista" {
call slow_by_half();
call DRM_everything();
}
call functional_code();
}
else
call crash_windows();
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Patrick Elliott wrote:
> Hmm. If you follow from your starting premise, maybe. The problem of
> course that (3) is in error anyway. You can *get* irreducible systems,
> without either needing them to be designed *or* previously existing.
Certainly. And even if you found an irreducible system that you could
*prove* could *not* have evolved on its own, that still doesn't point to the
necessity of a God.
After all, we already have systems like that. Indeed, the whole
"watchmaker's" argument is predicated on the fact that the watch is indeed
irreducible enough to need to be designed. It doesn't follow from that that
God created watches.
--
Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
Linux: Now bringing the quality and usability of
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Darren New escreveu:
> Patrick Elliott wrote:
>> Hmm. If you follow from your starting premise, maybe. The problem of
>> course that (3) is in error anyway. You can *get* irreducible systems,
>> without either needing them to be designed *or* previously existing.
>
> Certainly. And even if you found an irreducible system that you could
> *prove* could *not* have evolved on its own, that still doesn't point to
> the necessity of a God.
>
> After all, we already have systems like that. Indeed, the whole
> "watchmaker's" argument is predicated on the fact that the watch is
> indeed irreducible enough to need to be designed. It doesn't follow from
> that that God created watches.
you guys would enjoy God of War. :)
--
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nemesis wrote:
> you guys would enjoy God of War. :)
http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/zero-punctuation/1595-God-of-War-III
--
Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
Linux: Now bringing the quality and usability of
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From: John VanSickle
Subject: Re: Another philosophical religious thought...
Date: 19 Apr 2010 18:39:14
Message: <4bccdb92@news.povray.org>
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Darren New wrote:
> Let's consider that JHVH is the first mover, the effect with no cause,
> because He has been around forever and was never created.
>
> Now let's consider that JHVH created Man in His own image.
>
> Doesn't that discredit the Watchmaker's argument?
>
> I mean, if God modeled humans after God, then God has eyes, right? And
> if God has eyes (and all those other irreducibly complex systems) the
> God didn't create those systems.
Unless making man in God's image means that man was gifted with free
will, a very common interpretation.
Regards,
John
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From: John VanSickle
Subject: Re: Another philosophical religious thought...
Date: 19 Apr 2010 18:42:05
Message: <4bccdc3d$1@news.povray.org>
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Darren New wrote:
> somebody wrote:
>> In fact, I don't think any major sects believe that God is
>> physical in the sense we come to understand it,
>
> Maybe not any more. Certainly when he was walking around the Garden
> looking for Adam and Eve he was.
Unless that is an analogy using the words that come closest to what God
was doing.
> And he wasn't omniscient or he wouldn't have been calling out trying
> to find them. :-)
By that reasoning, math teachers don't know what two plus two is.
>> so the whole "in his image" business needs a deeper understanding
>
> Certainly. But then, if we aren't like him physically, and we weren't
> created in his moral image, and we are still incapable of understanding
> how he thinks, in what sense are we his image?
We *were* created in His moral image, that of sinless perfection. But
all of us have blown it through sin.
Regards,
John
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