Jim Henderson wrote:
> 
> Well, ISTR that most Finnish drivers go through what is described by some 
> as the most intensive driving course in the world, and that the exams are 
> actually difficult.

Either I can't comply or I am that better-than-average driver that
something like 80% are told to think of themselves (I did drive and get
more lessons than average driving student, as my father teached me).
Once I hit 18, it was pretty clear go-through for the exams and through
all of them (a picture exam, theoretical questions and driving exam) via
one shot. Last summer I upgraded my license so I can pull hevier loads -
 I trained for one night (with a car I've never driven before - luckily
WV Transporter T4 2,4D Syncro is a damn easy car for such exams) and
tried out the picture test with a computer program couple of times at
the same morning I was about to have the exams (4 this time, 10
questions, 50 pictures, handling exam and half an hour of driving) and
I'd say it was easy. OTOH the guy who took the driving exam said it was
actually a pleasant drive :). I guess something like 100Mm in more
hectic traffic than it was there teaches you something ;).

> Jim

-Aero

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Jim Henderson wrote:
> 
> 80% of drivers think they're above average.  What scares me about that 
> statistic is that 20% think they're below average and they're still on 
> the roads.
> 

I still haven't seen any document, which says what those people think is
an average. Those 20 percent might think they are slower and always
harassing someone, while they actually are driving safely in theier own
limits.

Plain numbers are just plain numbers. That 80/20 -sharing proves nor
says nothing, 'cause they don't say, which kind of driver (economic,
safe, fast...) is the best one.

> Jim

-Aero

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On 29-3-2009 20:40, Jim Henderson wrote:
> On Sun, 29 Mar 2009 10:02:50 +0200, andrel wrote:
> 
>> On 29-3-2009 7:42, Jim Henderson wrote:
>>
>>> I've only once, for example, been so drunk that I couldn't remember
>>> what had happened (the time I got home and wasn't sure); but the memory
>>> did return after a few days (and let's just say I was damned lucky). 
>>> So I know my tolerance and I don't get anywhere near it now.
>> Long before you notice anything yourself your reaction time already goes
>> up. 
> 
> This is definitely true; however I learned a long time ago how to judge 
> that.  However the unexpected is something you can't predict, which is 
> why I stay off the road until my reactions are better.
> 
> If I'm at a friend's house and expect to drink more than a pint or two of 
> beer over the course of the evening, I ask them to hold my keys for me 
> and to not give them back if it's clear I'm in no condition to drive.

To which my predictable response would be that they can not judge 
either. But that is so predictable that I won't do it. ;)

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On 29-3-2009 20:38, Jim Henderson wrote:
> On Sun, 29 Mar 2009 19:04:56 +0300, Eero Ahonen wrote:
> 
>> Stephen wrote:
>>> Have you ever heard anyone saying "I drive better after a couple of
>>> drinks"?
>>>
>>>
>> They (yes, the famous they - I don't remember which magazine it was)
>> tested it at Finland some years ago. They had a computer with driving
>> simulator and everyone in the test took a one drink between driving
>> sessions. The results show that after 2-3 drinks most of them actually
>> were driving better than without. OTOH they drove the same track over
>> and over again (they had to to make sure that the results are
>> comparable) and learned how the track goes :). I guess no-one is
>> surprised to hear that there wasn't people surprisingly running to the
>> track oslt involved.
>>
>> -Aero
> 
> Well, ISTR that most Finnish drivers go through what is described by some 
> as the most intensive driving course in the world, and that the exams are 
> actually difficult.

The Dutch is also very intensive. I think less than 40% get it on their 
first exam. It is preceded by a theoretical part that has even a bit 
more failures. It took me about 2 years and 4 tries to get my license. 
The retries mainly because the examinators don't like the style of 
driving of a 40 year old intellectual. Or at least that was the 
explanation of my instructor. He predicted that after a couple of tries 
I could ask for another type of examination and that I would succeed 
then the first time. Which I did. It took that examinator about 100m to 
figure out why I would never pass the normal exam and why that was 
wrong. I, of course, got my theory in one try (twice*).
I think that the everage cost of a driver license here is a couple of 
thousand euro's.
Question to check how your link with reality is: a Dutchman going to the 
States for a couple of years or an American coming here. One has to do 
an exam to convert to a valid local license: which one?

*) because it is only valid for one year.

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On 29-3-2009 20:37, Jim Henderson wrote:

> 80% of drivers think they're above average.  What scares me about that 
> statistic is that 20% think they're below average and they're still on 
> the roads.

I assume they think that they are below average but still better than 
that 40% of morons that they normally see on the road.

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andrel <a_l### [at] hotmailcom> wrote:
> The Dutch is also very intensive. I think less than 40% get it on their
> first exam. It is preceded by a theoretical part that has even a bit
> more failures. It took me about 2 years and 4 tries to get my license.

Why then, at weekends, are the German motorways crowded with Dutch people who
still cannot drive? :P

(sorry, just jumping on an old stereotype ;))

> Question to check how your link with reality is: a Dutchman going to the
> States for a couple of years or an American coming here. One has to do
> an exam to convert to a valid local license: which one?

I bet the Dutch guy staying in the US: They don't recognize anything that comes
from outside America The Beautiful.

But I bet it's just one drive round the local supermarket car park. In a car
with automatic transmission.

A US citizen staying in Germany would have to fill in tons of paperwork instead,
I guess. Probably to confirm that he is able to drive from his home to the
Strassenverkehrsamt, over to a photographer, the US embassy, half a dozeon
other Aemter, and finally back to the Strassenverkehrsamt... or something like
that :P

The German do recognize stuff from outside Germany - but only if it can be
stapled, stamped and filed ;)

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On 29-3-2009 23:37, clipka wrote:
> andrel <a_l### [at] hotmailcom> wrote:
>> The Dutch is also very intensive. I think less than 40% get it on their
>> first exam. It is preceded by a theoretical part that has even a bit
>> more failures. It took me about 2 years and 4 tries to get my license.
> 
> Why then, at weekends, are the German motorways crowded with Dutch people who
> still cannot drive? :P

Because we would like to go by bike but they were stolen by the Germans 
in the war.

> (sorry, just jumping on an old stereotype ;))

ditto. ;)


If it were true *) a more reasonable answer would be that we are not 
familiar with driving on motorways without traffic jams every 5 minutes.

*) I have seen Germans driving here, so I am not immediately convinced.

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On Sun, 29 Mar 2009 17:37:22 EDT, "clipka" <nomail@nomail> wrote:

>But I bet it's just one drive round the local supermarket car park. In a car
>with automatic transmission.

When I passed my UK driving test (1st time) about 30 years ago. I'd had two
driving lessons, went through a red traffic light and parked with four wheels on
the pavement (sidewalk). Go figure!
-- 

Regards
     Stephen

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On 29 Mar 2009 14:37:37 -0400, Jim Henderson <nos### [at] nospamcom> wrote:

>
>Point.  But even sleeping separately while driving can cause automobile 
>accidents. :-)
>

Very True :-)

>>>Well, I'd say that *some* people are really bad at judging low-risk
>>>activities.  But why penalize the rest of us for it?
>>>
>> Because everyone thinks that they are the exception.
>
>80% of drivers think they're above average.  What scares me about that 
>statistic is that 20% think they're below average and they're still on 
>the roads.
>

Average? 
Besides that not being above average does not mean being below average. And even
if you think that you are below average that does not mean that you should not
be allowed to drive or 50% of drivers would loose their licences. Then 50% of
the remainder would be below the new average u.s.w.

>> "tend to get off the phone" Does that mean that sometimes you don't?
>
>Depends on the route I'm driving and how busy the road is.  I usually get 
>to the city after rush hour is over, so the surface streets are not all 
>that busy.  I also use a headset, both hands on the wheel at all times.
>

Better than using a handset, I admit, but your concentration is still not 100%
on the road IMO.

>> Have you ever heard anyone saying "I drive better after a couple of
>> drinks"?
>
>I have, and I think it's one of the stupidest things I've ever heard - 
>and I generally will tell people who say that exactly that.
>

Me too.

>That said, a good friend of mine (who lost his license as a result of the 
>incident) ended up with a shattered ankle after a head-on collision.  He 
>was over the legal limit, and the other driver died in the accident.  But 
>being the freak he is, it was 100% the other guy's fault - the other car 
>was over the centre line on a long curve and there's no way my friend 
>could've avoided hitting him.
>
>The constables on the scene - as well as the dead driver's family - felt 
>badly for him because his license was suspended.
>

I suppose that you had to be there.

>The guess is that the main reason he didn't die in the accident was 
>because he was relaxed as a result of the alcohol.  If he hadn't had a 
>few pints ahead of time, his injuries would probably have been more 
>severe or he might've died.

From my understanding of the way alcohol relaxes you he must have been blotto
then. That does not add up. If he was so relaxed then he would not have been
able to react swiftly and correctly. I presume that he was wearing a seatbelt
and in a safe car to escape serious injury.

-- 

Regards
     Stephen

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> If it were true *) a more reasonable answer would be that we are not 
> familiar with driving on motorways without traffic jams every 5 minutes.

Or with motorways where people are regularly wanting to go 160 km/hr or 
faster, and are not afraid to show you they want to :-)

Actually the biggest difference I noticed between UK and German motorways 
are that here in Germany most drivers are really thinking about the other 
cars on the road rather than just themselves.  For example, if they see you 
are behind and have come up quite quickly, they will move over into even a 
small gap just to let you pass, this would NEVER happen in the UK, in fact 
the opposite happens, people deliberately don't move even into massive gaps 
if they notice you are daring to go faster than 70 mph.

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