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Patrick Elliott wrote:
> So, yes, there is a "value" that come with it, which you don't have
> without it.
I disagree that spirituality without a personal sky daddy is necessarily
better than a spirituality with a personal sky daddy.
(I use the term "personal sky daddy" as a mildly derogatory way of referring
to the generic supernatural deity that has a personal interest in your
well-being and behavior, rather than a generic "god that created the
universe" kind of thing. This tends to forstall the silly "what if god
created physics and then let everything take its course" kind of arguments.)
--
Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
Why is there a chainsaw in DOOM?
There aren't any trees on Mars.
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Saul Luizaga wrote:
> To get a pragmatic POV about religion from a true Priest I advice to see
> a scene of the movie 'Kingdom of Heaven (2005)' in which a Priest that
> was about to go into a certain-death battle addresses his last words to
> the main Character (Legolas in Lord of The Rings, can't remember his name).
>
> Those words and "never take compassion away from your heart" have set my
> spiritual path for life.
This has what to do with anything? I mean, other than the vast number of
the faithful that show about as much "compassion" to anyone different to
them as most students do dissecting a frog in biology classes (or to
those that differ from them on the play ground). Hell, if it "at least"
addressed the point of the article I linked to, it might mean
"something", but since you refuse to read that anyway, its... I don't
know what it is, except of another, "You can't have X without Y.",
argument, in which the presupposition of Y is used to incorrectly derive
the assertion.
--
void main () {
If Schrödingers_cat is alive or version > 98 {
if version = "Vista" {
call slow_by_half();
call DRM_everything();
}
call functional_code();
}
else
call crash_windows();
}
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Saul Luizaga wrote:
> To get a pragmatic POV about religion from a true Priest
Problem one: phrasing this in a way that implies that disagreement with the
words of this priest means you aren't religious. How about a little
humility, like "to get a pragmatic idea of what *I* believe in
religion-wise, ...."
Problem two: A pragmatic point of view of a fictional character is far from
pragmatic in view of Proposition 8, the Gaza strip, Muslim suicide bombers,
abortion center doctor murderers, and Danish cartoonists, just to name a
few. Sure, it might be the case that this fictional depiction of the wonders
of religion is inspirational, but somehow I feel that for some reason most
of the adherents of these monotheistic faiths have somehow lost that whole
brotherly-love kind of thing going on.
> the main Character (Legolas in Lord of The Rings, can't remember his name).
For the first couple of readings, I thought "he gets his spiritual advice
from Lord of the Rings"?? Before I realized you meant the actor. :-)
> Those words and "never take compassion away from your heart" have set my
> spiritual path for life.
Because, you know, the God that recommends murdering loving gay people and
punishes people and animals forever for things *our* secular justice system
says they're incompetent to be punished for is so compassionate.
--
Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
Why is there a chainsaw in DOOM?
There aren't any trees on Mars.
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You have nailed me in the center of my forth head. As I mentioned before
on some other post I've moved from Catholic Roman Christian to
"Jew"-Christian, or just Christian, no denomination or church. A little
Gnostic too, yes, since I wont' buy the gibberish the Vatican shoves to
their followers; I wanna have a conversation with God and I want to
Follow him as He tells me I should do, in other words: the closest God
considers is the good path, but as the Bible has been manipulated over
centuries I have doubts about it, so I'm doing what I can to find that
path, even that means learn from other non-Christian people, even
Atheists or Gnostics(they are helpful at saying what is not divine :-)
so they help me to make small corrections to my path/beliefs).
In Short, I'm searching the truth... about God... that implicitly tells
me how to follow him (most Religions fail at this purpose, ironically).
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OK, Darren I understand you beliefs and POVs better now, I assumed too
much again but you kinda showed yourself like an Atheist on previous
posts so I assumed you were an Atheist like Patrick.
Was fun to discuss with you Andrew, I wish all my discussion could be as
rational and emotionally balanced as this one. Anyway I think we
shouldn't take this conversation any further because I think is not the
proper place for it and we have settle our points of views, plus I don't
want to be the root of more polemic attitudes/subjects, but I'd like to
discuss about spirituality with you in some more appropriate place.
You're welcome and I thank you for yours :-D
P.S.
Power of prayer:
-http://sandracarrington-smith.blogspot.com/2008/07/healing-power-of-prayer-and-positive.html
- Scientific proof that prayer:
workshttp://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread2597/pg1
The other side of the coin:
Study fails to show healing power of prayer:
https://www.divinecosmos.com/forums/showthread.php?t=7463
Google searches:
http://www.google.com/search?q=scientific+proofs+of+the+efficacy+of+prayer+on+healing&start=0&start=0&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&client=mozilla&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:unofficial
experiment to show the power of prayer on healing
Have fun :-)
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Saul Luizaga wrote:
> OK, Darren I understand you beliefs and POVs better now, I assumed too
> much again but you kinda showed yourself like an Atheist on previous
> posts so I assumed you were an Atheist like Patrick.
I *am* an atheist. Perhaps not quite like Patrick, but I am an atheist. What
gives you the impression I'm not?
> Power of prayer:
>
-http://sandracarrington-smith.blogspot.com/2008/07/healing-power-of-prayer-and-positive.html
>
> - Scientific proof that prayer:
> workshttp://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread2597/pg1
I'll check it out.
--
Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
Why is there a chainsaw in DOOM?
There aren't any trees on Mars.
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Saul Luizaga wrote:
> Power of prayer:
>
http://sandracarrington-smith.blogspot.com/2008/07/healing-power-of-prayer-and-positive.html
Heresay from a mystic believer, with mysticism mixed in. No actual scientif
evidence presented other than anecdotes.
> - Scientific proof that prayer:
> http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread2597/pg1
Again, a popular press article with no actual science described.
Given that the expected number of people died (namely, 4), what's the
statistical likelyhood that the four that died were people not prayed for?
Even given that, what makes you think it's supernatural? Arguing that
prayer leads to healing is like arguing that evolution doesn't explain some
feature found in animals - in neither case is the existence of God implied.
--
Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
Why is there a chainsaw in DOOM?
There aren't any trees on Mars.
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On 15-Jan-09 2:16, Saul Luizaga wrote:
> You have nailed me in the center of my forth head. As I mentioned before
> on some other post I've moved from Catholic Roman Christian to
> "Jew"-Christian, or just Christian, no denomination or church. A little
> Gnostic too, yes, since I wont' buy the gibberish the Vatican shoves to
> their followers; I wanna have a conversation with God and I want to
> Follow him as He tells me I should do, in other words: the closest God
> considers is the good path, but as the Bible has been manipulated over
> centuries I have doubts about it, so I'm doing what I can to find that
> path, even that means learn from other non-Christian people, even
> Atheists or Gnostics(they are helpful at saying what is not divine :-)
> so they help me to make small corrections to my path/beliefs).
Gnosis is not in all interpretations incompatible with being a
Christian. There are even those ...
> In Short, I'm searching the truth... about God... that implicitly tells
> me how to follow him (most Religions fail at this purpose, ironically).
Well, I am also searching but being an atheist, I look via a different path.
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Darren New wrote:
> Patrick Elliott wrote:
>> So, yes, there is a "value" that come with it, which you don't have
>> without it.
>
> I disagree that spirituality without a personal sky daddy is necessarily
> better than a spirituality with a personal sky daddy.
>
Depends, I suppose, on your definition of "better". Some people seem to
be virtually "incapable" of functioning as rational human beings without
a god. Frankly, some of those people scare the hell out of me, since I
have either seen them in moments when they questioned it, or have been
told by them what they "imagine" they could do, if they suddenly found
they didn't have a god looking over them. For those people.. having such
a "spirituality" that is derived from the magic sky faerie, is better
then without it.
Then there are the others, who use belief in the forgiveness, mandates
from, communication with, and self selected quote mining of his supposed
words, to justify doing all the things that the former group would do,
but **as a result** of having the belief. That category would be better
off if they had to deal with the cold hard truth that there isn't
anything out their that cares about every tiny little thing they do, and
they bloody well better start being nice to real people on earth.
That the majority fall some place between these two, with occasional,
and limited, wobbles in one or the other direction, based on their pet
peeves, doesn't at all, in my mind, suggest that the first group might
have been better off if introduced to moral thinking, instead of fear
based self control, and the later to the concept of humility, without,
in either case, resorting to what has, in one fashion or another, helped
manufacture their rather dangerous mental instabilities in the first place.
For both sets, a spirituality that sees the world for what it is, and
find awe in that, is far superior than one that sees it as all corrupt,
or all made for their own purposes, with only an imaginary friend there
to tell them "how" to use it, or what things to avoid doing.
Note, the "spirituality" of those in the middle, while they often walk a
bit close to both lines at times, has "far" more in common with the
naturalist/humanist spirituality they deny believing in, than the deity
based one. So.. it might be argued that, if you examine religious
spirituality, in its purist and untainted form, it has serious problems. ;)
--
void main () {
If Schrödingers_cat is alive or version > 98 {
if version = "Vista" {
call slow_by_half();
call DRM_everything();
}
call functional_code();
}
else
call crash_windows();
}
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Darren New wrote:
> Because, you know, the God that recommends murdering loving gay people
> and punishes people and animals forever for things *our* secular justice
> system says they're incompetent to be punished for is so compassionate.
>
Reminds me of something someone else said in reference to the whole ID
thing. Some of them have figured out that they can't bully a god into
the thing if that god "created" everything as is. Either that, of they
keep missing each other memos. Some of them, on a site called 'Uncommon
Descent' recently, in the midst of banning posters and deleting comments
that told them they where wrong, and why, wrote about an article that
suggested that "Species have the 'latent potential' for more than what
it currently possible, and thus things like increases in oxygen and
result in those latent potentials being expressed." This is simply
saying that, if a species "could be" 10 feet tall, but it is only 5 feet
tall, more oxygen, which would help them metabolize food more
efficiently, thus allowing them to get to 10 feet. This is a huge
"Duh!", in some respects, since you can see body size differences in
people, do to "nothing" more than if they are living where they have
abundant food, as apposed to where they have little. UD interpreted this
as "front loading". I.e., genes that where "preset" to activate, to
produce some species later on. Same bunch also insist that God shows up
to "tweak" things, all the time.
The question posed was, "What kind of incompetent, supposedly
omni-potent, omni-present, and all loving god **can't** set the whole
thing up to run without him, but has to show up like a software
engineer, looking for bugs, to 'tweak' thinks, as they go wrong?"
Or, as someone else put it:
Omni-present, Omni-potent, and Omni-benevolent. Pick two!
--
void main () {
If Schrödingers_cat is alive or version > 98 {
if version = "Vista" {
call slow_by_half();
call DRM_everything();
}
call functional_code();
}
else
call crash_windows();
}
<A HREF='http://www.daz3d.com/index.php?refid=16130551'>Get 3D Models,
3D Content, and 3D Software at DAZ3D!</A>
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