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Saul Luizaga wrote:
> Darren New wrote:
> Patrick, I apologize if I offended you. Let me tell you that you can't
> find God, God finds you IF you actually are looking to meet Him/Her/It.
> You write like you actually don't care about spirituality but you care
> enough to write a justification about its inexistence, so maybe you feel
> the spiritual vibe but not in a classical way but your own...
Oddly, I don't believe we where talking "at all" about spirituality.
That is I think the crux of the problem. You think the concept is
derived from the "existence" of a God, never mind that you also will
probably agree that Buddhists are spiritual, while failing to grasp that
it wasn't until years after his death that a sub-cult developed that
tried to make him into a god, while his original teachings deny the
existence of gods as much as any atheist. I think you are making a
category error. Its much like Plato said in his famous play about
Socrates, in which a man approaches Socrates to talk about the "moral"
basis for turning his father in for the murder of another, and Socrates
sends him twisting around himself, unable to logically prove that you
need a god to determine what is right and wrong, or even that what a god
thought as right was, or thought was wrong was, or that such a god
deciding to change his mind would "somehow" make right wrong, and wrong
right. Mind, Plato's answer was that right and wrong in "ingrained" in
the universe itself somehow, and so that, even if the gods didn't agree
on right and wrong, some things would "always" be right, and others
"always" wrong. Unfortunately, history tend to show otherwise, in that
civilizations happily label what ever is convenient for them as "right",
and inconvenient for them "wrong", with little regard for the effect
doing so really has on anyone, including themselves, in the long run.
The only things that have appeared to be universal have been things
found in animals as well, and even then, the best that can be said about
humanity is that we have "lost" some things, in gaining better ability
to apply those. But, it comes with a trade off. It might be a "lot"
better for use if we could "smell" how healthy a potential mate was,
but, its seems, we traded the organ that detected pheromones distinctly
for "better color vision". And that trade off leads to a whole mess of
idiocies, social hangups, genetic diversity/disease issues, and other
problems that are far less common in other animals. Oops!
--
void main () {
If Schrödingers_cat is alive or version > 98 {
if version = "Vista" {
call slow_by_half();
call DRM_everything();
}
call functional_code();
}
else
call crash_windows();
}
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Darren New wrote:
>> One more thing there are things that only God can provide and yes
>> somehow it shapes your perception of "spirituality, sense of
>> beauty, or their knowledge of good and evil"... Makes them better... :-)
>
> Hmmm... Hard to understand what you mean without the punctuation, but
> I'm inclined to disagree.
>
Think it is, again, a category error. I value "my" TV more than TVs in
general. In a sense, having a "personal" connection to the universe,
instead of just being something "in it", would make the experience "more
valuable" in the same way. Logic tends to dash this perception to
pieces, in that, if you are being honest, any TV that is identical to
your own would be just the same, presuming someone snuck into your
house, removed your old one, then replaced it with an identical one. You
likely wouldn't even notice the difference, unless the volume was higher
or lower than you remembered. Yet, there is still an entirely
"artificial" value to the idea that you "own", or are "connected to"
something else. This is what religion "gives" people. And its the
hardest thing to give up, because they can't imagine making a similar
connection with something else, which has the same "value" as they have
placed on this equally artificial connection they feel they have already.
So, yes, there is a "value" that come with it, which you don't have
without it. But, I am betting that, if you could do the same thing with
it, as you could with the TV (while sadly impractical), they wouldn't
know the difference either.
--
void main () {
If Schrödingers_cat is alive or version > 98 {
if version = "Vista" {
call slow_by_half();
call DRM_everything();
}
call functional_code();
}
else
call crash_windows();
}
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3D Content, and 3D Software at DAZ3D!</A>
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Saul Luizaga wrote:
> Patrick Elliott wrote:
>> And, no, you are the one confusing wishful thinking with the idea that
>> just because you find "comfort" in an idea it has to be "right". How
>> often is that "ever" true in the real world?
>
> More than you or any other Atheist would ever be willing to admit, I
> have a pragmatical logic too but there are things that when you analyze
> them has subtle spiritual features if you are willing to admit such a
> possibility, not for spirituality it self, nor for religion nor science
> but fir truth sake. I believe there is more than meets the eye and more
> than science in the Universe.
>
I spent years "looking" for those features, and occasionally, almost,
convincing myself I had found them. Stop telling me what I have, did,
would, or can do.
> Finally I'm sorry but I won't read what the Atheist ex-Priest wrote
> since I think Atheist are short sighted spiritually and they just
> speak/write from that POV, maybe later as a curiosity.
Very.. Open minded of you. Oh, wait, no, I mean the other word.
Seriously, what they hell make you think that your opinion of what you
"think" atheists are like gives you the right to imply that none of them
can have anything useful to say on the subject. Nothing you have said to
this point has truly offended me, but hand waving away a willingness to
examine someone else's opinion, based solely on your own preconceptions
of the "short sightedness" of someone's "spiritual" views? No, I would
argue instead that you have narrowed the definition of what *can be*
spiritual so much that anything that isn't about **your** kind of
spirituality gets "automatically" defined as "shallow", but its like
listening to some old geezer tell me I am clueless because I don't think
that Andy Griffith was the "pinnacle" of television, and that everything
after, including everything made in other countries, has all been useless.
--
void main () {
If Schrödingers_cat is alive or version > 98 {
if version = "Vista" {
call slow_by_half();
call DRM_everything();
}
call functional_code();
}
else
call crash_windows();
}
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3D Content, and 3D Software at DAZ3D!</A>
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Patrick Elliott wrote:
> Oddly, I don't believe we where talking "at all" about spirituality.
Yeah, that's kind of my beef too.
> it wasn't until years after his death that a sub-cult developed that
> tried to make him into a god
600 years or so, actually.
--
Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
Why is there a chainsaw in DOOM?
There aren't any trees on Mars.
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Patrick Elliott wrote:
> So, yes, there is a "value" that come with it, which you don't have
> without it.
I disagree that spirituality without a personal sky daddy is necessarily
better than a spirituality with a personal sky daddy.
(I use the term "personal sky daddy" as a mildly derogatory way of referring
to the generic supernatural deity that has a personal interest in your
well-being and behavior, rather than a generic "god that created the
universe" kind of thing. This tends to forstall the silly "what if god
created physics and then let everything take its course" kind of arguments.)
--
Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
Why is there a chainsaw in DOOM?
There aren't any trees on Mars.
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Saul Luizaga wrote:
> To get a pragmatic POV about religion from a true Priest I advice to see
> a scene of the movie 'Kingdom of Heaven (2005)' in which a Priest that
> was about to go into a certain-death battle addresses his last words to
> the main Character (Legolas in Lord of The Rings, can't remember his name).
>
> Those words and "never take compassion away from your heart" have set my
> spiritual path for life.
This has what to do with anything? I mean, other than the vast number of
the faithful that show about as much "compassion" to anyone different to
them as most students do dissecting a frog in biology classes (or to
those that differ from them on the play ground). Hell, if it "at least"
addressed the point of the article I linked to, it might mean
"something", but since you refuse to read that anyway, its... I don't
know what it is, except of another, "You can't have X without Y.",
argument, in which the presupposition of Y is used to incorrectly derive
the assertion.
--
void main () {
If Schrödingers_cat is alive or version > 98 {
if version = "Vista" {
call slow_by_half();
call DRM_everything();
}
call functional_code();
}
else
call crash_windows();
}
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3D Content, and 3D Software at DAZ3D!</A>
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Saul Luizaga wrote:
> To get a pragmatic POV about religion from a true Priest
Problem one: phrasing this in a way that implies that disagreement with the
words of this priest means you aren't religious. How about a little
humility, like "to get a pragmatic idea of what *I* believe in
religion-wise, ...."
Problem two: A pragmatic point of view of a fictional character is far from
pragmatic in view of Proposition 8, the Gaza strip, Muslim suicide bombers,
abortion center doctor murderers, and Danish cartoonists, just to name a
few. Sure, it might be the case that this fictional depiction of the wonders
of religion is inspirational, but somehow I feel that for some reason most
of the adherents of these monotheistic faiths have somehow lost that whole
brotherly-love kind of thing going on.
> the main Character (Legolas in Lord of The Rings, can't remember his name).
For the first couple of readings, I thought "he gets his spiritual advice
from Lord of the Rings"?? Before I realized you meant the actor. :-)
> Those words and "never take compassion away from your heart" have set my
> spiritual path for life.
Because, you know, the God that recommends murdering loving gay people and
punishes people and animals forever for things *our* secular justice system
says they're incompetent to be punished for is so compassionate.
--
Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
Why is there a chainsaw in DOOM?
There aren't any trees on Mars.
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You have nailed me in the center of my forth head. As I mentioned before
on some other post I've moved from Catholic Roman Christian to
"Jew"-Christian, or just Christian, no denomination or church. A little
Gnostic too, yes, since I wont' buy the gibberish the Vatican shoves to
their followers; I wanna have a conversation with God and I want to
Follow him as He tells me I should do, in other words: the closest God
considers is the good path, but as the Bible has been manipulated over
centuries I have doubts about it, so I'm doing what I can to find that
path, even that means learn from other non-Christian people, even
Atheists or Gnostics(they are helpful at saying what is not divine :-)
so they help me to make small corrections to my path/beliefs).
In Short, I'm searching the truth... about God... that implicitly tells
me how to follow him (most Religions fail at this purpose, ironically).
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OK, Darren I understand you beliefs and POVs better now, I assumed too
much again but you kinda showed yourself like an Atheist on previous
posts so I assumed you were an Atheist like Patrick.
Was fun to discuss with you Andrew, I wish all my discussion could be as
rational and emotionally balanced as this one. Anyway I think we
shouldn't take this conversation any further because I think is not the
proper place for it and we have settle our points of views, plus I don't
want to be the root of more polemic attitudes/subjects, but I'd like to
discuss about spirituality with you in some more appropriate place.
You're welcome and I thank you for yours :-D
P.S.
Power of prayer:
-http://sandracarrington-smith.blogspot.com/2008/07/healing-power-of-prayer-and-positive.html
- Scientific proof that prayer:
workshttp://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread2597/pg1
The other side of the coin:
Study fails to show healing power of prayer:
https://www.divinecosmos.com/forums/showthread.php?t=7463
Google searches:
http://www.google.com/search?q=scientific+proofs+of+the+efficacy+of+prayer+on+healing&start=0&start=0&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&client=mozilla&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:unofficial
experiment to show the power of prayer on healing
Have fun :-)
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Saul Luizaga wrote:
> OK, Darren I understand you beliefs and POVs better now, I assumed too
> much again but you kinda showed yourself like an Atheist on previous
> posts so I assumed you were an Atheist like Patrick.
I *am* an atheist. Perhaps not quite like Patrick, but I am an atheist. What
gives you the impression I'm not?
> Power of prayer:
>
-http://sandracarrington-smith.blogspot.com/2008/07/healing-power-of-prayer-and-positive.html
>
> - Scientific proof that prayer:
> workshttp://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread2597/pg1
I'll check it out.
--
Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
Why is there a chainsaw in DOOM?
There aren't any trees on Mars.
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