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andrel wrote:
> I think that sentence was fully justified by the tone of the post
It was simply a statement of fact. I honestly feel bad for people who need
some supernatural being to provide them with the sense of wonder of the
universe, or to threaten them with harm if they don't follow the moral code
they've decided they ought to follow.
It's no more a troll than Saul accusing me of being too afraid to admit he's
right and my life is wasted.
And yes, thank you, my trolling is second only to my BSing. Probably because
I actually think about the topics I tend to troll on, because I want to see
and consider the validity of the responses I tend to get. :-)
--
Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
Why is there a chainsaw in DOOM?
There aren't any trees on Mars.
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On Tue, 13 Jan 2009 13:58:22 -0400, Saul Luizaga <sau### [at] netscape net> wrote:
>I think people like you are voluntarily blind to spirituality and make
>sure to stay this way, hence any belief in God is just non-sense from
>"wacky people".
That's true in my case.
>I wonder what kind of fear(s) relies in this denial
>behavior... comfortableness of a materialistic world? who knows,
There are lots of dirt poor people who don't believe in a god so materialism is
not really a reason. There are lots of bad people who believe in a god but that
does not make them able to go through the eye of a needle.
>but I think you are wasting your time analyzing religion/spiritual related
>matters when you have an aperture to it of any kind, because everything
>would be just non-sense anyway.
Truer words n'er spoken.
--
Regards
Stephen
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Saul Luizaga wrote:
> I think people like you are voluntarily blind to spirituality and make
> sure to stay this way, hence any belief in God is just non-sense from
> "wacky people". I wonder what kind of fear(s) relies in this denial
> behavior... comfortableness of a materialistic world? who knows, but I
> think you are wasting your time analyzing religion/spiritual related
> matters when you have an aperture to it of any kind, because everything
> would be just non-sense anyway.
?? You do know how many fracking people that call themselves atheist
right now started out as complete and total believers right? By my
estimate its like 50:50. But seriously, heard the argument before, and
its complete idiocy, even without the fact that half the people that now
deny religion started out religious.
Oh, and, just to be clear, there are a lot of people that do believe in,
and do analyze spirituality and religions, how never the less get
sneered at by both atheists and believers alike, because they invariably
reach the conclusion that no one could possibly believe in an
interventionist god. One side sneers at them because you can't turn on
the TV without hearing someone babbling about how god directly
intervened in something, and the other side sneers at them for not
"getting really spirituality and the truth that god truly does intervene
in people's lives". So, are these "scholars" also "blind"?
As for fear.. The only thing I fear from religion is the kind of
stupidity and ignorance that can lead to people insisting that the
solution to every problem our nation faces is more churches, less
evidence based facts in schools, more historical revisionism, and less
"evil materialist insistence on treating the world like we can
understand it!". That scares the hell out of me. Your fiction that I
might burn in hell or end up in limbo, or be reincarnated as snail, or
what ever the heck you think is going to happen, holds about as much
fear for me as the possibility that Freddy Cruger is real and will visit
me in my dreams, to kill me. And, no, you are the one confusing wishful
thinking with the idea that just because you find "comfort" in an idea
it has to be "right". How often is that "ever" true in the real world?
--
void main () {
If Schrödingers_cat is alive or version > 98 {
if version = "Vista" {
call slow_by_half();
call DRM_everything();
}
call functional_code();
}
else
call crash_windows();
}
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andrel wrote:
> I think you'll find that there are a lot of 'atheists' that have studied
> the bible and other holy books in more detail than your average
> minister. They won't consider that a waste of time themselves.
>
Yeah. As an example, PZ Myers is one of the most unappologetic atheist
science bloggers around, and at this point he has so many copies of the
fracking Bible in his house that he has to throw some out once in a
while to keep space on his shelves for other *useful* books. Why?
Because, despite having grown up with one, and making the mistake of
actually reading the damn thing (a mistake that most preachers never do,
unless in a group, so they can convince each other it makes sense),
pretty much every evangelical that ever shows up to "refute" his science
sends him a copy to this place of work, on the insane theory that no one
else has ever "thought of" sending him a Bible to "convert" him to
religion... During 'Cracker Gate', in which PZ dared to challenge the
legitimacy of the idea that the life of a college student was worth
"less" than a Euchrist, more than a few of these people also suffered
what has become known as "Fatwa Envy", and sent him copies of the Koran,
daring him to also desecrate that. One wonders at these people's reading
comprehension, or just general blindness, given that the image that
started all of them attacking him had several pages out of Richard
Dawkin's book, an euchrist *and* several pages out of a Koran, in a
trashcan, covered in his used coffee grounds, and pieced through by a
rusty nail. No idea how many morons sent him copies, but not one of them
ever read the original article, understood what was being protested, or
had a damn clue that he had "already" desecrated a Koran as part of the
protest of place *any* supposedly "holy" object higher than human life.
And, that isn't even mentioning copies of numerous other religious works
he owns, and has read, and had his, also atheist kids, read.
Truth is, almost universally, the only atheists that have "never" read
the Bible at all, are rejected by atheist communities because a) they
make stupid arguments, b) prove not to know what they are talking about,
c) fall for other stupid BS, d) are obviously angry or confused, and
didn't reach their point of view by learning anything at all, and e)
almost always "convert back" the moment some crisis pops up in their
lives, and some religious person is nicer to them for their irrational
thinking, demands for the universe to be nice to them, and disinterest
in sound advice, than all the atheists they latched onto, thinking it
made them look cool to be one (kind of like fake Goths, or like the
"plastic hippies" that they used to talk about in the 60s-70s, who only
showed up on their days off to "pretend" to be one of the culture.) Fake
atheists, that don't get there honestly via understanding and a true
desire to learn, are not going to get much sympathy, especially after
they prove unwilling to learn or understand. We might be willing to show
them the way to find a real understanding, but when it became obvious
that all they where is someone "playing at it", you can be quite sure
our reaction to them would be the same as someone showing up to "help"
at a church fund raiser, for the sole purpose of pretending to care,
while pocketing all the money they took in for themselves.
If you don't know how other atheists got to their conclusions, you are
not going to be hand held, just pointed to sources, and one of the
"first" things we **ever** say to anyone professing to side with us, if
they seem ignorant, is, "Try reading the Bible honestly, cover to cover,
without someone 'helping' you interpret it, then read some stuff from
other religions too. That is how most of us lost all faith in it."
--
void main () {
If Schrödingers_cat is alive or version > 98 {
if version = "Vista" {
call slow_by_half();
call DRM_everything();
}
call functional_code();
}
else
call crash_windows();
}
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3D Content, and 3D Software at DAZ3D!</A>
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Oh, and. One of the fun arguments you guess you is that faith gives
hope. Here is the take of a "ex-priest" turned atheist blogger one that
subject:
http://thechapel.wordpress.com/2009/01/12/of-myths-and-postmen/
--
void main () {
If Schrödingers_cat is alive or version > 98 {
if version = "Vista" {
call slow_by_half();
call DRM_everything();
}
call functional_code();
}
else
call crash_windows();
}
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3D Content, and 3D Software at DAZ3D!</A>
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Patrick Elliott <sel### [at] npgcablecom> wrote:
> "Try reading the Bible honestly, cover to cover,
> without someone 'helping' you interpret it, then read some stuff from
> other religions too. That is how most of us lost all faith in it."
Quite ironically, that's probably the easiest way of understanding it
in the wrong way in many parts.
You just can't go and simply read such a book out of the blue, from a
*modern* background, without first understanding the culture and customs
of the time, without having the correct perspective. For example, there
are many sayings and similes which were normal and common at the time and
the place, but which can be completely misunderstood when read without
understanding that historical context, from a purely modern western point
of view, especially if the simile is taken literally.
Unlike many want to think of it, the Bible is not a completely
self-contained text. In order to fully understand it you need to know
something else as well. You just can't approach it from the scratch, without
"someone 'helping' you to interpret it" and expect to understand it
correctly. Doing that will only lead to misinterpretations and wrong
conclusions.
But of course radical atheists like that. They have a marvelously good
excuse: "But I *have* read the Bible, from cover to cover, with an open
attitude and without preconceptions, without anyone telling me how I should
or shouldn't interpret it. And I have came to the conclusion that it's
bollocks." Then they love to quote random passages, taken out of context
(both the textual context and the historical/cultural context) to show how
screwed the Bible is. Then they will ignore any attempt at an explanation
and dismiss it as a "rationalization".
--
- Warp
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Darren New wrote:
> Saul Luizaga wrote:
>> voluntarily blind to spirituality
>
> I double-ice-cream-dare you to watch these without a sense of awe.
> (Except for the brief excerpt of the Numa Numa guy in the middle, of
> course.)
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mcBV-cXVWFw
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yvNhw888XmM
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D3fOXt4MrOM
>
> I pity those who need a God to provide their spirituality, sense of
> beauty, or their knowledge of good and evil.
>
OK guys, I think I let myself carried away and went a little harsh on
Patric, but I felt a little offended when he minimized some things that
I find great and important, but now I see he was only expressing his
POV, that is Point of View... STOP RAYTRACING THAT MUCH! :-).
Patrick, I apologize if I offended you. Let me tell you that you can't
find God, God finds you IF you actually are looking to meet Him/Her/It.
You write like you actually don't care about spirituality but you care
enough to write a justification about its inexistence, so maybe you feel
the spiritual vibe but not in a classical way but your own... I'm only
guessing of course, but don't you feel there is something else than just
a bunch of molecules that gives emotions and memories to you, you
actually think where are biological robots of Evolution? That we are
what we are because Natural Evolution created life and that's it? Even
that thinking is logical somehow I doesn't satisfies me, not even close.
I respect your POV and is simply logical to think that way but I think
there is more, much more... When I had ega enough to go "religious" and
my Mom told me about God that created the Universe and stuff I had
already saw documentaries about the Universe and it just made perfect
sense to me; I'm not trying to convince you about anything just giving
you my POV.
andrel, the Bible was written as "poetry" in some points to better
describe God deeds, so you are taking it the wrong way.
Darren, I value Astronomy, Science, Raytracing, Music from group Era and
Enya and other stuff, by themselves and as a gift from God to us, you
misinterpreted me my friend.
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Darren New wrote:
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mcBV-cXVWFw
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yvNhw888XmM
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D3fOXt4MrOM
>
> I pity those who need a God to provide their spirituality, sense of
> beauty, or their knowledge of good and evil.
Forgot to say, beautiful videos, fascinating all of them, just cruelly
short, specially the DNA one.
One more thing there are things that only God can provide and yes
somehow it shapes your perception of "spirituality, sense of
beauty, or their knowledge of good and evil"... Makes them better... :-)
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Patrick Elliott wrote:
> And, no, you are the one confusing wishful
> thinking with the idea that just because you find "comfort" in an idea
> it has to be "right". How often is that "ever" true in the real world?
More than you or any other Atheist would ever be willing to admit, I
have a pragmatical logic too but there are things that when you analyze
them has subtle spiritual features if you are willing to admit such a
possibility, not for spirituality it self, nor for religion nor science
but fir truth sake. I believe there is more than meets the eye and more
than science in the Universe.
Is not something me or anyone can convince you, is something you have to
search for yourself, search the truth about spirituality, make your
spiritual homework and see what happens. And I'm not saying you become a
Monk and go on foot to the Himalayas to pray, just do it in your
everyday if you like.
Finally I'm sorry but I won't read what the Atheist ex-Priest wrote
since I think Atheist are short sighted spiritually and they just
speak/write from that POV, maybe later as a curiosity.
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Saul Luizaga wrote:
> but don't you feel there is something else than just
> a bunch of molecules that gives emotions and memories to you,
Yes.
> you actually think where are biological robots of Evolution?
Yes, in the sense that I think you mean it.
> That we are what we are because Natural Evolution created life and that's it?
Yes.
Those things are not mutually contradictory. It's entirely possible to be
"just a bunch of molecules" and for there to be something more that gives
emotions and memories.
"Don't you think there's more than just transistors and silicon and wires in
your computer that make it capable of processing Word documents? Surely a
rusty metal plate that's just like my metal plate can't hold your thoughts
and feelings while you're not thinking them."
> Darren, I value Astronomy, Science, Raytracing, Music from group Era and
> Enya and other stuff, by themselves and as a gift from God to us, you
> misinterpreted me my friend.
I didn't say "value". I said "inspire awe". :-) When using the same
terminology and arguments as others whose goal is to destroy you, you might
want to consider what the other person might associate with the phrases you
use. I am not sure I misinterpreted, since I didn't take you to be
particularly attacking me. I merely took you to be crass and hubric, not
intentionally offensive or threatening. :-)
--
Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
Why is there a chainsaw in DOOM?
There aren't any trees on Mars.
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