>> Maybe he can't change what he had created?
>
> Then God can't create miracles or answer prayers?

Maybe not all of them, seeing people suffering is not proof that God can't 
change anything.  Without God, maybe there would be orders of magnitude more 
suffering and evil.

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"Chambers" <ben### [at] pacificwebguycom> wrote:
> A corollary to this is a common distrust of doctors.  Some people feel
> that Doctors don't really know anything about how the body works, and
> that certain mythologies (holistic & herbal medicine) are more reliable
> than modern medicine.

To me, they seem to be.  As you observed, they can be very effective indeed, but
my main issue with modern medicine is not with the science of it, but
commercialism:  its huge attachment to the pharmaceutics/drugs industry and
what I observe to be some lack of etics by the "doctors".

Whenever I bring my daughter to the doctor when she gets some cold or ear
inflamation it's the same damned thing:  get her some antibiotics.  F*ck, no!
I do not intend for her to be an antibiotics zombie or something.  Whatever
happenned to traditional ways of dealing with such health issues, like drinking
teas and simply waiting for the organism to heal itself?

Medical doctors are not the impartial scientists of legend, they are in it to
make a living and the most lucrative way of doing it is to ally themselves with
the lucrative drugs business...

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On 24-Dec-08 11:08, nemesis wrote:
> "Chambers" <ben### [at] pacificwebguycom> wrote:
> Whenever I bring my daughter to the doctor when she gets some cold or ear
> inflamation it's the same damned thing:  get her some antibiotics.  F*ck, no!
> I do not intend for her to be an antibiotics zombie or something.  
Come to the Netherlands where such actions are frowned upon if not 
downright forbidden by their peer group. The reasoning behind that is 
that unnecessary antibiotics will increase the number of resistant 
microbes such as MRSA.

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andrel <a_l### [at] hotmailcom> wrote:
> On 24-Dec-08 11:08, nemesis wrote:
> > "Chambers" <ben### [at] pacificwebguycom> wrote:
> > Whenever I bring my daughter to the doctor when she gets some cold or ear
> > inflamation it's the same damned thing:  get her some antibiotics.  F*ck, no!
> > I do not intend for her to be an antibiotics zombie or something.
> Come to the Netherlands where such actions are frowned upon if not
> downright forbidden by their peer group. The reasoning behind that is
> that unnecessary antibiotics will increase the number of resistant
> microbes such as MRSA.

Indeed!  That's why Brazil is third world, this kind of cheap mentality.

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> -----Original Message-----
> From: nemesis [mailto:nam### [at] gmailcom]
> my main issue with modern medicine is not with the science of it, but
> commercialism:  its huge attachment to the pharmaceutics/drugs
industry
> and
> what I observe to be some lack of etics by the "doctors".

I've been hugely fortunate in my experience with Doctors; the ones I've
known have seemed to be genuinely caring & sincere in their desire to
help.

Of course, the only doctors I've been in contact with in the last 10
years have been ER staff, so maybe that has something to do with it...

...Ben Chambers
www.pacificwebguy.com

A render isn't slow unless it won't finish until after your next
birthday.

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"andrel" <a_l### [at] hotmailcom> wrote in message
news:495### [at] hotmailcom...
> On 24-Dec-08 11:08, nemesis wrote:
> > "Chambers" <ben### [at] pacificwebguycom> wrote:

> > Whenever I bring my daughter to the doctor when she gets some cold or
ear
> > inflamation it's the same damned thing:  get her some antibiotics.
F*ck, no!
> > I do not intend for her to be an antibiotics zombie or something.

> Come to the Netherlands where such actions are frowned upon if not
> downright forbidden by their peer group. The reasoning behind that is
> that unnecessary antibiotics will increase the number of resistant
> microbes such as MRSA.

That's where the paradox lies, and I am not sure if one resolution is better
than the other. From the point of the individual, it's not his or her
problem that antibiotic use in general populace and in the long term breeds
resistant strains. The personal benefit is real, and outweighs the personal
risk. Limiting the use of antibiotics out of concern for breeding resistant
strains places the society before the individual. Such sacrifices are fine,
but I think they should be voluntary instead of mandated.

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On 25-Dec-08 14:49, somebody wrote:
> "andrel" <a_l### [at] hotmailcom> wrote in message
> news:495### [at] hotmailcom...
>> On 24-Dec-08 11:08, nemesis wrote:
>>> "Chambers" <ben### [at] pacificwebguycom> wrote:
> 
>>> Whenever I bring my daughter to the doctor when she gets some cold or
> ear
>>> inflamation it's the same damned thing:  get her some antibiotics.
> F*ck, no!
>>> I do not intend for her to be an antibiotics zombie or something.
> 
>> Come to the Netherlands where such actions are frowned upon if not
>> downright forbidden by their peer group. The reasoning behind that is
>> that unnecessary antibiotics will increase the number of resistant
>> microbes such as MRSA.
> 
> That's where the paradox lies, and I am not sure if one resolution is better
> than the other. From the point of the individual, it's not his or her
> problem that antibiotic use in general populace and in the long term breeds
> resistant strains. The personal benefit is real, and outweighs the personal
> risk. Limiting the use of antibiotics out of concern for breeding resistant
> strains places the society before the individual. Such sacrifices are fine,
> but I think they should be voluntary instead of mandated.
> 
Whether the personal benefit is real is questionable, possibly in the 
very short term, but probably not on a longer time scale. Having every 
individual make that decision is silly. Any responsible government or 
professional healthcare organisation should make that because that is 
their responsibility. All in all a very 'American' point of view if you 
ask me (and I don't even know where you are living).

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Darren New <dne### [at] sanrrcom> wrote:

> In the first case, it would be unjust to blame someone for not
> believing in your religion if such disbelief is entirely the fault of
> external circumstances.


#declare Christian_Proselytization=on;

I think that I have a problem with the presuppositions here.  Christianity might
not make much sense if it were like this:  we're all doing fine, just trying our
best, and all of a sudden you find out that you had to have had one particular
sports team's logo on the shirts of your closet or you face eternal torment.
Then you spend a lot of time in philosophical analysis wondering how fair or
unfair it was that you had to choose one sports team.

As a Christian, I don't find that line of argument very convincing at all, I
might "disbelieve" a religion that was accurately described by the analogy.


It ultimately boils down to conviction of sin. If you're not feeling "terrors of
the conscience", you need not apply.

I think what I'm talking about is best described in C.S. Lewis' Mere
Christianity, Chapter 5.
#include " http://tinyurl.com/96hf7a "
#declare useful_QUOTE="Most of us have got over the pre-war wishful thinking
about international politics. It is time we did the same about religion."

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gregjohn wrote:
> I think that I have a problem with the presuppositions here.

[snip]

> As a Christian, I don't find that line of argument very convincing at all, I
> might "disbelieve" a religion that was accurately described by the analogy.

I'm pretty sure that "believing in Jesus" is required to get you into heaven 
in most evangelical christian religions.

In any case, the point I was making is that if you don't believe in free 
will, it's not up to you whether you "believe" or "disbelieve", or whether 
you feel the "conviction of sin."

It's like calling a religion "unjust" if you are punished because you chose 
to be born female.

The very fact that anyone feels it's useful to argue about religion means 
they feel your religion is a choice. That when it's time to decide whether 
you "accept jesus as your personal savior" or "accept that Mohamed is his 
prophet", that it's actually a choice and not completely predestined. If you 
could no more "choose" to believe in Jesus than you could to disbelieve in 
gravity, there's not a whole lot of point in discussing whether you should 
or shouldn't believe in a particular religion. *That* was the kind of belief 
I was talking about w.r.t. "free will."

-- 
   Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
   The NFL should go international. I'd pay to
   see the Detroit Lions vs the Roman Catholics.

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My thoughts:

Clarification: I haven't read all posts.

Recently, creationists have claimed that they have found a proof of 
creation: something to do with a radiation emitted by certain atoms on 
peace of matter, I was very sleepy at the time of seen this on a 
sleepless night.

So, that "proof" as any other theory is only that. As some people 
pointed out, you cant actually find a single proof of God existence and 
probably you wont in your lifetime, hence the belief in God is by faith 
and by faith alone. So, my belief is: a Supreme Being that created our 
universe, and the universe evolved naturally to create everything else, 
maybe even life, a Being that designed matter and energy that could be 
the root of a nice existence with free will, so we don't be puppets for 
the fun of a Superior Being, so I deduct He loves us so much that would 
let it all happen even if that means saying He doesn't exist at all.

I also believe that dying is simply growing up spiritually, going to a 
"purely functional" spiritual world where we can see what the real deal 
was all about as a child enters the adult world. I think we will be 
judged by our hearts and good deeds and not for the following of a "true 
religion". Even the Bible says people without law will be judged without 
law (in that case, Jewish law, Torah), so I think that day God will 
square things for everyone, people that unfairly took advantage for no 
good reason and leaved un-judged a "good life" would have their punishment.

I think: God=Love, and from there everything good can come to us, that 
is the root of everything good.

  Defining Love as a 100% non-selfish behavior, hence we can't love with 
perfection because we always take a little "payment" for us (always a 
little selfish at least).

Defining violence as the near 100% selfish behavior.

Is so simple, yet so hard to do...

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