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On 16-Jan-09 6:29, Patrick Elliott wrote:
> Darren New wrote:
>> Patrick Elliott wrote:
>>> So, yes, there is a "value" that come with it, which you don't have
>>> without it.
>>
>> I disagree that spirituality without a personal sky daddy is
>> necessarily better than a spirituality with a personal sky daddy.
>>
> Depends, I suppose, on your definition of "better". Some people seem to
> be virtually "incapable" of functioning as rational human beings without
> a god. Frankly, some of those people scare the hell out of me, since I
> have either seen them in moments when they questioned it, or have been
> told by them what they "imagine" they could do, if they suddenly found
> they didn't have a god looking over them. For those people.. having such
> a "spirituality" that is derived from the magic sky faerie, is better
> then without it.
>
> Then there are the others, who use belief in the forgiveness, mandates
> from, communication with, and self selected quote mining of his supposed
> words, to justify doing all the things that the former group would do,
> but **as a result** of having the belief. That category would be better
> off if they had to deal with the cold hard truth that there isn't
> anything out their that cares about every tiny little thing they do, and
> they bloody well better start being nice to real people on earth.
>
> That the majority fall some place between these two, with occasional,
> and limited, wobbles in one or the other direction, based on their pet
> peeves, doesn't at all, in my mind, suggest that the first group might
> have been better off if introduced to moral thinking, instead of fear
> based self control, and the later to the concept of humility, without,
> in either case, resorting to what has, in one fashion or another, helped
> manufacture their rather dangerous mental instabilities in the first place.
>
> For both sets, a spirituality that sees the world for what it is, and
> find awe in that, is far superior than one that sees it as all corrupt,
> or all made for their own purposes, with only an imaginary friend there
> to tell them "how" to use it, or what things to avoid doing.
>
> Note, the "spirituality" of those in the middle, while they often walk a
> bit close to both lines at times, has "far" more in common with the
> naturalist/humanist spirituality they deny believing in, than the deity
> based one. So.. it might be argued that, if you examine religious
> spirituality, in its purist and untainted form, it has serious problems. ;)
>
I think you are missing at least one other 'pole' i.e. those that think
they have a purpose in life. I have met a fairly large group of
religious people that feel responsible for their neighbours and the
earth in general. That is not because there is a God that is going to
count every action when they die and will punish them if the score is
negative. They really do have an internal motivation to do this. I also
know a couple of atheists with the same drive, in fact almost the only
thing that separates these two groups is that one believes in God and
the other doesn't.
If you leave out this group of spiritual people in your analysis you do
the religious people unjustice. Note that nearly every new religious
group starts here and only later on when people find that being a
religious leader gives power over others dogmas start to develop. Note
also that gnostic individuals and groups are almost by definition not
following authority.
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andrel wrote:
> I think you are missing at least one other 'pole' i.e. those that think
> they have a purpose in life. I have met a fairly large group of
> religious people that feel responsible for their neighbours and the
> earth in general.
Me too. They passed Proposition 8.
> That is not because there is a God that is going to
> count every action when they die and will punish them if the score is
> negative.
No, it's because they think they should be God's hand on Earth, like God
isn't strong enough to actually enforce his own rules, and they need to do
it for him. Which is one part that always boggled my mind.
> If you leave out this group of spiritual people in your analysis you do
> the religious people unjustice.
As opposed to the injustice the religious people do in the name of their
religion?
> Note that nearly every new religious
> group starts here
Those "new" religions being, what, Scientology and Mormonism?
--
Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
Why is there a chainsaw in DOOM?
There aren't any trees on Mars.
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On 16-Jan-09 18:12, Darren New wrote:
> andrel wrote:
>
>> That is not because there is a God that is going to count every action
>> when they die and will punish them if the score is negative.
>
> No, it's because they think they should be God's hand on Earth, like God
> isn't strong enough to actually enforce his own rules, and they need to
> do it for him. Which is one part that always boggled my mind.
I am sorry, but I think I know my friends better than you do.
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andrel wrote:
> I am sorry, but I think I know my friends better than you do.
Fair enough. I was referring to the people around here, actually, not your
friends in particular; I phrased that part poorly.
I don't really mind if people believe in their gods or not. It's when they
use physical coercion to attempt to convince me their god is right that it
ticks me off, or that somehow my life would be better in some ill-defined
way if I believed in their god (even tho they have no idea how good or bad
my life is, nor can they describe their god beyond vague handwaving).
--
Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
Why is there a chainsaw in DOOM?
There aren't any trees on Mars.
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On 16-Jan-09 19:02, Darren New wrote:
> andrel wrote:
>> I am sorry, but I think I know my friends better than you do.
>
> Fair enough. I was referring to the people around here, actually, not
> your friends in particular; I phrased that part poorly.
I know, but it is one of those things that we better settle on the
record. You never know who is reading along.
> I don't really mind if people believe in their gods or not. It's when
> they use physical coercion to attempt to convince me their god is right
> that it ticks me off, or that somehow my life would be better in some
> ill-defined way if I believed in their god (even tho they have no idea
> how good or bad my life is, nor can they describe their god beyond vague
> handwaving).
I don't know if it is where I live or who my friends and acquaintances
are but in my experience the group that tries to express their believe
by living as an example of what faith can do to a person is so large
that you can not neglect them. The group that you refer to is more
visible as a group, but I are less likely to meet them as they tend to
stick together. The group I mean is not so recognizable as they are
friendly people and you have to know them better to understand what rôle
faith plays in how they interact with other people. Sometimes it may
turn out that that faith happens to be atheism, but we were not talking
about those.
All in all I think that your opinion about religious people is too much
influenced by the bad and very visible examples. The situation in the
states may indeed be such that this is more or less understandable.
Don't forget, however, that this is an international group and
reiterating what is wrong with your sort of religious people may not be
understood if you live in another culture. At least I don't recognize
your generalization of 'believers'.
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andrel wrote:
> I know, but it is one of those things that we better settle on the
> record. You never know who is reading along.
Understood and agreed.
> All in all I think that your opinion about religious people is too much
> influenced by the bad and very visible examples.
Unfortunately, it's the majority of everyone who are visible examples. Plus,
we have multiple wars going on over (at least in part) the same stuff.
I'll shut up now, tho. :-)
--
Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
Why is there a chainsaw in DOOM?
There aren't any trees on Mars.
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Darren New wrote:
> Saul Luizaga wrote:
>> OK, Darren I understand you beliefs and POVs better now, I assumed too
>> much again but you kinda showed yourself like an Atheist on previous
>> posts so I assumed you were an Atheist like Patrick.
>
> I *am* an atheist. Perhaps not quite like Patrick, but I am an atheist.
> What gives you the impression I'm not?>
Your spirituality... hence I don't think you are an Atheist per se, at
least not a classical one.
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Darren New wrote:
> Again, a popular press article with no actual science described.
> Given that the expected number of people died (namely, 4), what's the
> statistical likelyhood that the four that died were people not prayed for?
>
> Even given that, what makes you think it's supernatural? Arguing that
> prayer leads to healing is like arguing that evolution doesn't explain
> some feature found in animals - in neither case is the existence of God
> implied.
>
nor denied, and as I write before, this probably will never be proved or
discarded. I just google this for you, I hadn't even read them, forgot
to say that.
That said, I believe that even can do supernatural achievements on
extreme situations, as I wrote before, I don't think is totally our
merit but a little help from God. Think about one of those extreme
situations I described... you wouldn't hold to any peace of belief/faith
you can grasp? I imagine the mother saying to God: "OK God, you better
give me a hand here because I'm going to rescue mu child or die
trying...". On moments like that you have no doubts, you belief what you
have secured as worth believe/have faith in. Of course I could be
mistaken, but if I were the mother I'd say those words with all the
conviction and faith I could get and try to do what she did, no room for
rationality, just pure love for my child., but that's me...
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andrel wrote:
> On 15-Jan-09 2:16, Saul Luizaga wrote:
>> In Short, I'm searching the truth... about God... that implicitly
>> tells me how to follow him (most Religions fail at this purpose,
>> ironically).
>
> Well, I am also searching but being an atheist, I look via a different
> path.
I and wish you the best of lucks my friend. I'll pray for you...
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A little evolution fact:
You probably know this but I wanted yo share it with you.
I recently(a few weeks ago) learned that we are in fact evolved monkeys
and there is now genetic prove: 2 chromosomes has joined and get
identified with what ends, aside from that the rest of our chromosomes
are identical to the monkeys'.
Interesting how we evolved, and saying we don't is being biased
blindsided toward a religion, there is a ton of documentary videos on TV
I've seen (and I'm sure is only a small number) where there is more than
just probable cause of evolution from one spices into another, in some
cases not definitive evidence in others not enough but you feel there
must be some kind of logical connection, because Nature simply works
that way: Biology in bio-/chemistry, chemistry in atomic physics, so
evolution is a fact of the universe, fascinating...
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