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>> Where I'm from, lying isn't good.
>
> It's not lying. It's no more lying than leaving out the bad grades.
Technically yes. But claiming to have "extensive knowledge of AutoCAD"
when really you just work filling paper in an office where AudoCAD is
used with be an exaggeration to the point of lying. Similarly, claiming
to have done a large-scale software development exercise when all you
really did was 20 minutes' work is rather dishonest.
> Whether the scripts were small or not is irrelevant. Nobody else could
> have done it, and it saved the company $8000. The people interviewing
> you care about that sort of thing, not how many lines it took.
Well, maybe.
> And include it as "wrote dozens of custom utility programs to diagnose
> and automatically correct problems, including network diagnostics
> superior to those employed by our ISP." ;-)
This is again untrue. The scripts don't "correct" anything, they merely
monitor, and for a fee our ISP can probably provide us with all kinds of
far superior software and hardware - and even personnel to run it. (It's
amazing what companies will do for you if you pay them enough money...)
> Add everything you know. You're trying to get a job where knowing stuff
> is important. The more you list, the more obvious it is you can learn
> stuff.
So, what, just dump a giant laundry list of stuff?
Where do I stop? I mean, I could say I know HTML, CSS, XML, XSLT, LaTeX,
PostScript, AmigaGuide... where do you draw the line?
>> The point I was really trying to make is that "normal people" don't
>> spend their lunch break learning new technical skills that they don't
>> actually need for anything "just for the hell of it". Only seriously
>> motivated people do that.
>
> And seriously smart people.
I hypothesize that people become seriously smart by being seriously
motivated. ;-)
>> Oracle consultant when our DB died... but it's not massively relevant
>> here.
>
> you get hired there, because that's how much you'll save them.
If I was applying for an Oracle role... sure. But I'm not.
>> The trouble is... I *do* do nothing each day! o_O
>
> But you're not supposed to show that.
Sure. But it's hard to disguise something that's actually true.
--
http://blog.orphi.me.uk/
http://www.zazzle.com/MathematicalOrchid*
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Orchid XP v8 wrote:
> This is again untrue. The scripts don't "correct" anything,
You never wrote a script that fixed something?
> and for a fee our ISP can probably provide us with all kinds of
> far superior software and hardware - and even personnel to run it. (It'
s
> amazing what companies will do for you if you pay them enough money...)
Sure. And you did it without paying the fee. That's the point.
Suggestion: don't put on your resume that there are a whole bunch of
other more-experienced people available, either. They know that too. :-)
> Where do I stop? I mean, I could say I know HTML, CSS, XML, XSLT, LaTeX
,
> PostScript, AmigaGuide... where do you draw the line?
Yep. Put all that in. Anything you think an employer might need.
> I hypothesize that people become seriously smart by being seriously
> motivated. ;-)
They become seriously educated by being smart and motivated. :-)
en
>> you get hired there, because that's how much you'll save them.
>
> If I was applying for an Oracle role... sure. But I'm not.
How do you know you're not? The company you're applying for may have an
unadvertised opening for someone translating LaTeX documents stored in
their Oracle database into HTML and PostScript.
>>> The trouble is... I *do* do nothing each day! o_O
>> But you're not supposed to show that.
> Sure. But it's hard to disguise something that's actually true.
No doubt. But important nonetheless. :-)
--
Darren New / San Diego, CA, USA (PST)
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Orchid XP v8 wrote:
> Now there's an interesting problem. These guys will have stacks of
> people applying to them who are *lying through their teeth* about their
> actual capabilities.
And they know that!
> How do I distinguish myself from these frauds?
At the interview.
>> Yes. That's exactly the attitude to take. Redo the whole resume with
>> that sort of thought in mind.
>
> What, severely exaggerating the truth throughout?
Yes. Bluntly, yes.
>>> Well I'm *supposed* to work with the US dudes, and I'm *supposed* to
>>> be responsible for planning future upgrades.
>>
>> You're responsible. You don't have to downplay that either. :-)
>
> Heh, OK.
>
>>> You realise that the grades I mentioned are just the good ones, right?
>>
>> That's the point of a resume.
>
> My point being that only a few of my grades *were* good. Most of them
> weren't.
Yes. That's the point of a resume vs a transcript. ;-)
> IIRC, work was graded on a scale from A down to F, with U meaning
> "ungraded" - i.e., you failed completely.
The only "incomplete" I got was when I went to the wrong class all
semester. (Well, it was the right class, I just filled out the wrong
code number when I signed up. :-)
>> Pipe organ recitals!
> LOL! As if anybody is going to care... but sure, I can put that in. ;-)
You know, if the interviewer also plays the organ, you're right in.
Seriously. It's people.
>> Eighteen year history of .... then list every language you could write
>> Hello World in. :-)
>
> Erm, I can see this getting me into trouble. It's unwise to claim
> extensive experience with something unless you really do *have* that
> experience.
You only need extensive experience in some of the stuff. "I have
extensive experience in many languages. I know blah, blah, and blah."
Say it in a way that implies you have extensive experience in all of
them, but which can be read to mean you have extensive experience in
some of them.
What's the worst that happens: They don't hire you.
>> Passion for teaching and mentoring, with a strong track record of
>> explaining complex topics in understandable ways. Samples available on
>> request.
>
> Er, dude... like *what*? :-P
All the posts you've put up here? About Haskell and everything else?
>> Responsible for keeping the UK computing center operational for 30
>> staff members using 50 workstations. The systems included four
>> servers, a local LAN, and Internet connectivity. Responsibilities
>> included ensuring compliance with extensive government regulations,
>
> Do I mention the precise regulations in question? In case somebody might
> have heard of them?
I think you might mention the department or agency that does the
regulation, if it's something random people outside the agency would
recognise.
>> saving 8000 via automation in the year they were implemented. <Like
>> they're going to check that?>
>
> No, but they're going to quizz me about it, so I'd better have a good
> story to tell them.
Certainly. :-)
>> Created and maintained computer policies and procedures, documenting
>> same. Documents were approved and even complimented by the auditors of
>> <insert company/government agency here>.
>
> I don't think I'd actually be able to track down exactly which auditors
> specifically mentioned my documents.
Well, you know if it was a company, or a government agency, or what, yes?
> What I *could* claim is that the data I produced helped them
> successfully secure additional government funding.
There you go.
"Designed, administered, and analyzed a customer satisfaction survey
that aided in obtaining additional funding from government sources."
> The last two there being particularly relevant for the company I'm about
> to try to get attention from. (They design stuff like low-end 3D
> hardware and MPEG decoders.)
There ya go.
>> You can't just say "I did C and Pascal." You have to say what *you*
>> did, not what Ritchie and Wirth did. :-) Pretend the person looking at
>> your resume didn't go to school for computers and doesn't even know
>> what any of those words mean.
>
> Whohewho? o_O
http://letmegooglethatforyou.com/?q=wirth
> Maybe I should construct a finite-order Markov model from past
> successful CVs and use that to auto-generate apparently valid English
> content? :-D
Why not?
--
Darren New / San Diego, CA, USA (PST)
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On Tue, 18 Nov 2008 12:33:16 +0000, Invisible wrote:
> It says "up to" 25K. (In other words, that's not what they'll be paying
> *me*.) There's absolutely no guarantee it'll be any less stressful. It
> could in fact be far *more* stressful.
There are no guarantees in life - that's the way it is. But like I've
said before, Andy, DON'T decide for a prospective employer what you're
worth - THAT'S THEIR JOB, NOT YOURS.
Jim
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On Tue, 18 Nov 2008 13:04:42 +0000, Invisible wrote:
> I'm not seeing any specific job that I can tick ALL the boxes for
YOU DON'T HAVE TO TICK ALL THE BOXES! THE DECISION TO HIRE YOU OR NOT
HIRE YOU IS THEIR JOB, NOT YOURS!!!!!
(Sorry for the all caps, but I really do feel like I need to yell this).
Jim
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Orchid XP v8 wrote:
>> Add everything you know. You're trying to get a job where knowing stuff
>> is important. The more you list, the more obvious it is you can learn
>> stuff.
>
> So, what, just dump a giant laundry list of stuff?
>
> Where do I stop? I mean, I could say I know HTML, CSS, XML, XSLT, LaTeX,
> PostScript, AmigaGuide... where do you draw the line?
Add POV-Ray?
>>> I'd mention that time I saved us £16k for not having to call out that
>>> Oracle consultant when our DB died... but it's not massively relevant
>>> here.
>>
>> It's extremely relevant. That's £2400 they can add to your salary when
>> you get hired there, because that's how much you'll save them.
>
> If I was applying for an Oracle role... sure. But I'm not.
Do you make a custom CV for every job you apply for?
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On Wed, 19 Nov 2008 09:46:55 +0000, Invisible wrote:
> Neither of these things have saved anybody money. The scripts save my
> time. (Which means I can spent more time surfing the web - but I don't
> have to mention that part.)
This may come as a shock to you, but TIME = MONEY. Yes, it's true.
You say they pay you 14K per year. If we break that down into 40 hour
weeks, 52 weeks per year, that works out to a certain hourly rate you're
paid.
Now, if you write a script that saves you an hour a day twice a week,
that's 2 hours per week, 104 hours per year. Multiply by your hourly
wage, and you get a dollar figure. That's money saved.
A prospective employer doesn't need to know how you use the time you've
saved. They need to know that you can write scripts that save the
company money and effort.
I spend some of my time each day doing data entry for an exam
registration system (my job changed a couple months ago, and earlier this
month, I moved to a completely different role). I'm looking to automate
that process. It takes me maybe an hour or two every couple of days to
do what I have to do with the data entry portion of it. If I can get it
automated, that saves the company several thousand dollars per year in
data entry expenses, and I can take on other more interesting tasks that
might otherwise not get done.
You do a lot of math - so DO THE MATHS.
Jim
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On Wed, 19 Nov 2008 10:03:27 +0000, Invisible wrote:
>> If I were you I would
>> also take out the grade for your final year project, and replace it
>> with some more details about the project. Some poeple who are looking
>> at the CV might not know what MVC stands for?
>
> Does it matter? MVC is highly unlikely to be even remotely relevant to
> anything I'll be doing. (And it would take several paragraphs to
> explain.)
Not your decision to make. Don't use acronyms - define them at least
once.
Jim
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On Wed, 19 Nov 2008 11:11:46 +0000, Invisible wrote:
> scott wrote:
>>> If you take out the word "small" it sounds like I did something really
>>> major.
>>
>> Good.
>
> Where I'm from, lying isn't good.
It isn't lying to say "I wrote scripts that saved the company money" if
that's what you actually did. It isn't lying to say "I created charts
for 'x'" if you created charts.
>> Yes mention it, not in that way, but list PS as one of the languages
>> you are "familiar" with, and even mention that you learnt how to use it
>> in a couple of hours if it fits in.
>
> I was just listing the languages that readers are most likely to care
> about, but yeah, I guess I could add PostScript.
How many times do you have to be told: Don't decide what's important for
your interviewer - let them decide that. Just provide them with the
facts.
Jim
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On Tue, 18 Nov 2008 14:36:20 +0000, Invisible wrote:
> The head of IT wants me to file a deviation record for this. Rather
> than, you know, put the settings back to what they should be until the
> SOP actually comes into force.
DO IT. If it isn't written down, it never happened.
> Because let's face it, signing a bit of paper saying "hey, we're sorry"
> makes it all OK, doesn't it?
No, but it does create a paper trail. If it continues to happen, there's
a paper trail and that helps cover your butt if and when things go pear-
shaped.
Jim
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