On Wed, 12 Dec 2007 13:30:07 -0800, Darren New <dne### [at] sanrrcom> wrote:

>stbenge wrote:
>> Poll: What do you like more?
>> a) hard science fiction
>> b) fantastical sci-fi
>> c) space operas
>
>I prefer hard science fiction. However, given that, I don't consider it 
>to be science fiction unless it's actually about the technology and how 
>people react to it. If you could take the story about war between worlds 
>with blasters, and set it down as war between countries with revolvers, 
>it isn't science fiction. On the other hand, if it's about how 
>technology affects people, even old technology then I'd call it science 
>fiction. 

I agree with this bit too.

>Stories of how medieval peasants deal with the first knights in 
>armor would be SF in my book.

Sorry, for me this is historical fiction. It did happen, you know. :) 

I like a) hard SF best followed by b) fantastical SF and only if there is
nothing else to read c) space operas (Cowboys with space guns, I call them)

Sam's mom recommends Grass by Sheri S. Tepper I would recommend "The Gate to
Women's Country" by her. (Not a boys-ie book IMO)

There is some interesting work by women writers hiding amongst the stories of
"Feisty Girlies with Balls". Has anyone read Elizabeth Moon's "Remnant
Population" or "The Speed of Dark"? Or "Drinking Sapphire Wine" by Tanith Lee"?

Regards
	Stephen

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stbenge wrote:
> Dan Byers wrote:
>>> Poll: What do you like more?
>>> a) hard science fiction
>>> b) fantastical sci-fi
>>> c) space operas
>>
>> What would your definition of b) be (no pun intended)?  What's a good 
>> example of
>> this??
> 
> Grass, Sheri S. Tepper
> http://www.amazon.com/Grass-Sheri-S-Tepper/dp/0553285653
> 
> My mom suggested this book to me, but I just couldn't get into it. It 
> was too frickin' boring.
> 
> Also, the Pern (one letter off from porn) series by Anne McCaffrey. I 
> read one book of it, and had a hard time finishing it. Fantasy sci-fi 
> just isn't that interesting, IMO.

Hmm, I wouldn't describe the Pern stories as fantasy, unless you ignore 
all the prologues and some of the later (and lesser) books. But they 
certainly appear superficially fantastical (the word 'dragon' mainly... 
:)). Just goes to show that there's a finer line than people might think 
between these three categories.

I'm sorry you didn't enjoy the one you tried, I remember the first one I 
read was a little hard going simply because of all the new words and 
strange names she'd thought up. They get much easier. Which one did you 
read first? It should have been Dragonflight, or you wouldn't have 
understood a thing! :)

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Stephen wrote:
> On Wed, 12 Dec 2007 13:30:07 -0800, Darren New <dne### [at] sanrrcom> wrote:
>> Stories of how medieval peasants deal with the first knights in 
>> armor would be SF in my book.
> 
> Sorry, for me this is historical fiction. It did happen, you know. :) 

Try Pasquale's Angel, by Paul J McAuley. How Florence might have turned 
out if da Vinci had leaned more towards engineering than art. 
Contemporary celebrities are some of the main characters. A very good read!

> I like a) hard SF best followed by b) fantastical SF and only if there is
> nothing else to read c) space operas (Cowboys with space guns, I call them)

Hmm, sounds like everyone else has a different definition of space opera 
to me. I always thought that galaxy-spanning adventure and action were 
the main staples, which clearly can include hard sf as well as fantasies 
like Star Wars or Lensman. I'd put Iain M Banks' Culture novels into 
both categories without even thinking about it.

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Darren New wrote:
> nemesis wrote:
>> Darren New <dne### [at] sanrrcom> wrote:
>>> I don't consider it
>>> to be science fiction unless it's actually about the technology and how
>>> people react to it. If you could take the story about war between worlds
>>> with blasters, and set it down as war between countries with revolvers,
>>> it isn't science fiction. On the other hand, if it's about how
>>> technology affects people, even old technology then I'd call it science
>>> fiction. Stories of how medieval peasants deal with the first knights in
>>> armor would be SF in my book.

How about things like Orwell's 1984 then? That extrapolates many 
possible paths from its time, but doesn't really dwell on technology. Or 
would you put this into 'speculative fiction' but separate from sf?

> I also like a series where a world is created, populated with a range of 
> people (or species), and presented. Larry Niven and Terry Pratchett both 
> do these very well.

Niven must be my favourite author, I think. He's not as good with human 
characters as other authors, but he's a genius at aliens, concepts and 
stories.

> (Heh. Nerdware. Apparently Firefox's spelling dictionary recognises both 
> those names. :-)

And so it should :)

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On Thu, 13 Dec 2007 10:59:26 +0000, Bill Pragnell <bil### [at] hotmailcom>
wrote:

>Stephen wrote:
>> On Wed, 12 Dec 2007 13:30:07 -0800, Darren New <dne### [at] sanrrcom> wrote:
>>> Stories of how medieval peasants deal with the first knights in 
>>> armor would be SF in my book.
>> 
>> Sorry, for me this is historical fiction. It did happen, you know. :) 
>
>Try Pasquale's Angel, by Paul J McAuley. How Florence might have turned 
>out if da Vinci had leaned more towards engineering than art. 
>Contemporary celebrities are some of the main characters. A very good read!
>

I've never been able to enjoy alternative history novels, I don't know why. I
read some of McAuley's earlier work but found it too dark for my liking. I might
give him another try if I can find anything in the library. 

>> I like a) hard SF best followed by b) fantastical SF and only if there is
>> nothing else to read c) space operas (Cowboys with space guns, I call them)
>
>Hmm, sounds like everyone else has a different definition of space opera 
>to me. 

Naturally :)

>I always thought that galaxy-spanning adventure and action were 
>the main staples, which clearly can include hard sf as well as fantasies 
>like Star Wars or Lensman. I'd put Iain M Banks' Culture novels into 
>both categories without even thinking about it.

So do I but a lot of the plots are so derivative. It always brings to mind
Battle Beyond the Stars which was a remake of the magnificent seven which was a
remake of the seven samurai.
Have you tried Alastair Reynolds's Revelation Space series. IMO that is both
hard and a space opera.

Regards
	Stephen

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Stephen wrote:
> Have you tried Alastair Reynolds's Revelation Space series. IMO that is both
> hard and a space opera.

I have, and they're exceedingly good, some of the best sf I've ever 
read. I've read Revelation Space and Chasm City; both very different 
stories but I like the way some of the characters overlap - people 
mentioned in passing in RS are the main characters in CC...

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On Thu, 13 Dec 2007 12:16:56 +0000, Bill Pragnell <bil### [at] hotmailcom>
wrote:

>Stephen wrote:
>> Have you tried Alastair Reynolds's Revelation Space series. IMO that is both
>> hard and a space opera.
>
>I have, and they're exceedingly good, some of the best sf I've ever 
>read. I've read Revelation Space and Chasm City; both very different 
>stories but I like the way some of the characters overlap - people 
>mentioned in passing in RS are the main characters in CC...

I enjoyed "The Prefect" the latest in the series. I also really liked "Century
Rain" and "Pushing Ice". He is one of my favourite authors.

Regards
	Stephen

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> I need to read that one one of these days - got a copy out in the other
> room, just never got around to it...

I have that same problem with "Huckleberry Finn"... going on thirty years now :D

Dan
--
See my movies -- http://goofygraffix.com
Read my blog  -- http://goofygraffix.blogspot.com

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stbenge <stb### [at] hotmailcom> wrote:
(quoted out of order)
....
> Poll: What do you like more?
> a) hard science fiction
> b) fantastical sci-fi
> c) space operas

Sort Answer: a) & b)... NOT c)

I enjoy works that creatively explore the realm of possibilities, especially
those that provide a brief excursion, albeit an imaginary one, outside the
sphere of the mundane.  Generally, I'm a fan of "The Classics": Asimov,
Bradbury, Heinlein, Clarke, Pohl, Kornbluth, del Rey, and the rest of that
beloved old rouges gallery.  Doug Adams was a true genius and any zarking
turlingdrome who says otherwise is full of jujuflop and can go straight to
Belgium!  Interesting ideas can come out of either the "hard" or "fantastical"
styles, so I like them both.  Generally, mixing the two styles is a bad idea,
but a truly inventive writer just might create an exception to just about any
rule.

I find "Space Opera" wholly repugnant.  The same modern pop culture mass
marketing mindset that gives us fat-free ice cream and decaffeinated coffee
brings us idea-free science fiction... "all the spaceships, explosions and
blinky lights that the public loves, with none of those annoying challenging
concepts to dilute the nonstop ACTION!"

....
> How about a nice redirect of attention? Something to take your minds off
> of possibilities which may or may not exist. A good read.... something
> about.... well, possibilities which may or may not exist :) Of course
> I'm talking about Science Fiction.

Like many who have read Heinlein, I often find myself thinking "That's really
clever!" one moment and "How can you say THAT!" the next. This having been
said,  I present the following excerpts to bridge the gap between threads:


From: "Notebooks of Lazarus Long" By: Robert Heinlein



"History does not record anywhere at any time a religion that has any rational
basis. Religion is a crutch for people not strong enough to stand up to the
unknown without help. But, like dandruff, most people do have a religion and
spend time and money on it and seem to derive considerable pleasure from
fiddling with it."

"Men rarely (if ever) manage to dream up a God superior to themselves. Most Gods
have the manners and morals of a spoiled child."

"God is omnipotent, omniscient, and omnibenevolent-it says so right here on the
label. If you have a mind capable of believing all three of these divine
attributes simultaneously, I have a wonderful bargain for you. No checks,
please. Cash and in small bills."

"The most preposterous notion that H. Sapiens has ever dreamed up is that the
Lord God of Creation, Shaper and Ruler of all the Universes, wants the
saccharine adoration of His creatures, can be swayed by their prayers, and
becomes petulant if He does not receive this flattery. Yet this absurd fantasy,
without a shred of evidence to bolster it, pays all the expenses of the oldest,
largest, and least productive industry in all of history."

(end quotations)
=========================================

Best Regards,
Mike C.

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Bill Pragnell wrote:
> How about things like Orwell's 1984 then? That extrapolates many 
> possible paths from its time, but doesn't really dwell on technology. Or 
> would you put this into 'speculative fiction' but separate from sf?

Good question. I'd call it more speculative, because it's mostly about 
people affecting people, rather than technology. If it was about how 
people were monitored, and about how people found ways around the 
monitoring, for example, it would be more science fiction, I think.

I recently read a book called "The Wittling" (or some such spelling), 
wherein the humans get stranded on a planet with natives who have the 
natural ability to teleport. They are at medieval technology levels, but 
it's still SF, as it's how the humans cope with people who can teleport 
you or themselves.

> Niven must be my favourite author, I think. 

I gain a new appreciation every time I go back and read his stuff again. 
The way those two hold together an entire universe of 
reasonably-interacting but very different peoples over the course of a 
dozen books is pretty amazing.

-- 
   Darren New / San Diego, CA, USA (PST)
     It's not feature creep if you put it
     at the end and adjust the release date.

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