Darren New <dne### [at] sanrrcom> wrote:
> nemesis wrote:
> > It's not that.  According to Christian/Jewish religion, to the tale of Adam and
> > Eve, God made man and woman and made them so that they complement each other
> > and turn into one flesh by the institution of marriage.
>
> The same God that said "go forth and multiply"? So you shouldn't be able to
> get married if you can't have children?

That's a misunfortunate event for some couples, not like they don't try hard.

Oh, you're talking about 2 guys!  Well, science eventually will get around that.
 Science already permit many men to pretend they are women, by taking away the
penis, slashing away a vagina and drinking many hormonal beverages for the
breasts.  It doesn't change the fact that they were given a role in this world
as men and are not fulfilling it.

> We're not talking about religion here. We're talking about fundamental human
> rights.

Right.

> The Mormon god says Africans are decedents of Satan or some such.
> Does that mean we should reinstitute segregation?

No, Mormonism is a man-made myth.  OTOH, in the Old Testment YAWEH ordened many
tribes to be slaghtered by the Jews.  It seems they still listen to an enraged
YAWEH even to this day.

And yes, I realize this is where you want to get:  that homossexualism shouldn't
be condemned because all religions are just man-made myths, in your view.  From
a humanitarian perspective I agree, which is why I'm not against their civil
rights.

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On Tue, 06 Jan 2009 12:19:44 -0800, Darren New wrote:

> Jim Henderson wrote:
>> On Tue, 06 Jan 2009 10:03:42 -0800, Darren New wrote:
>> 
>>> The Mormon god says Africans are decedents of Satan or some such.
>> 
>> Used to, "Blacks" can now be members of the Mormon clergy.
> 
> But are they still descendants of Satan? Or did they just retro-edit
> their holy works to change that?

Depending on whom you talk to, there is a lot of revisionist history in 
the Mormon church.  I don't think you'll find those references in the 
current versions of the Book of Mormon (or the supplemental books like 
the C&D book).

Jim

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On Tue, 06 Jan 2009 15:50:19 -0500, nemesis wrote:

>> The same God that said "go forth and multiply"? So you shouldn't be
>> able to get married if you can't have children?
> 
> That's a misunfortunate event for some couples, not like they don't try
> hard.

You know, I'm going to try really hard not to take that personally, 
because some people are simply physically incapable of having kids.

>> The Mormon god says Africans are decedents of Satan or some such. Does
>> that mean we should reinstitute segregation?
> 
> No, Mormonism is a man-made myth.  OTOH, in the Old Testment YAWEH
> ordened many tribes to be slaghtered by the Jews.  It seems they still
> listen to an enraged YAWEH even to this day.

Your lack of knowledge about the Mormon faith is pretty deep, it would 
seem.  Do you even know what Mormons believe?

Some say that Judiaism and Christianity are man-made myths.  Defend that 
they're not and that Mormonism is - prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that 
Christ didn't visit North America after he was crucified, but prove that 
he is in fact the Son of God.

Jim

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nemesis wrote:
> That's a misunfortunate event for some couples, not like they don't try hard.

No, I'm sorry.   It's YAWEH doing it.   Obviously.

In any case, what difference does "trying hard" make? Does a gay person who 
"tries hard" to be straight and fail please God?

> It doesn't change the fact that they were given a role in this world
> as men and are not fulfilling it.

I'm so glad you have a direct line to God's mind, to know what role he has 
for each and every human on the planet.  Ask him for me where I can get a 
better job?  KTHXBYE.

> a humanitarian perspective I agree, which is why I'm not against their civil
> rights.

Sure. Sadly, many are.  Or rather, enough are, which is really the problem.

-- 
   Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
   Why is there a chainsaw in DOOM?
   There aren't any trees on Mars.

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On 06-Jan-09 22:05, Darren New wrote:
> nemesis wrote:
> 
>> It doesn't change the fact that they were given a role in this world
>> as men and are not fulfilling it.
> 
> I'm so glad you have a direct line to God's mind, to know what role he 
> has for each and every human on the planet.  Ask him for me where I can 
> get a better job?  KTHXBYE.
HAI, it was Andy that was looking for a better job if I am not mistaken. 
Or can there be more than one in a newsgroup? Was there something in the 
bible about seeking jobs?

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On Tue, 06 Jan 2009 22:24:34 +0100, andrel wrote:

> HAI, it was Andy that was looking for a better job if I am not mistaken.
> Or can there be more than one in a newsgroup? Was there something in the
> bible about seeking jobs?

Yes, I believe it's in Matthew, something about "turning the other cheek".

(<scnr>, someone quoted that passage at me earlier today)

Jim

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andrel <a_l### [at] hotmailcom> wrote:
> There are people who seem to have both or neither or have one but all
> other characteristics of the opposite sex. There are boys that in
> puberty transform into females. You have XY females, XX males, persons
> with three sex chromosomes, XXY and XXX (I think both sort of females
> (sorry, don't feel like googling today)) and IIRC also the persons with
> only a single sex chromosome survive, etc etc. And we are not even
> talking about transgender surgery.

Those are freaks.  These are sinners. ;)

Guess the freaks may have the option to decide by themselves.

> So whatever you choose there will
> always be persons that you cannot define or that others will consider to
> be of the opposite sex with just as much reason. Hence, even if for the
> large majority you can with reasonable certainty say what gender they
> have, the concepts are fundamentally undefined.

Look, man (?).  Perhaps one day our descendants won't even know what sex is,
being just streams of couscious bytes roaming freely through a hardware network
encopassing all of our galaxy and perhaps more.  Until that day, man is whatever
gives sperm and woman whatever takes it to give birth to a new being.

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Darren New <dne### [at] sanrrcom> wrote:
> nemesis wrote:
> > Ok, bad joke asides, hermaphrodites are special cases.
>
> And the answer to them is...?  :)
>
> I mean, that's the point, isn't it? The Bible doesn't special-case them, so
> on what grounds do you make your decision, if you're denying gay marriage on
> the grounds that God only creates unambiguously men and women?

Most gays are not hermaphrodites.

And I'm not denying gay marriage.  Go, live happily in their nature denial.

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On 06-Jan-09 22:41, nemesis wrote:
> Darren New <dne### [at] sanrrcom> wrote:
>> nemesis wrote:
>>> Ok, bad joke asides, hermaphrodites are special cases.
>> And the answer to them is...?  :)
>>
>> I mean, that's the point, isn't it? The Bible doesn't special-case them, so
>> on what grounds do you make your decision, if you're denying gay marriage on
>> the grounds that God only creates unambiguously men and women?
> 
> Most gays are not hermaphrodites.

Nobody said so. It is simply a way of applying basic logic to law. There 
is a law that only allows a man and a woman to marry. That implies that 
for every person it should be clear what sex they have. We provide a 
number of counterexamples, and only one would be enough. And thus we 
come to the simple conclusion that the premise of the law is faulty and 
the law should never have been approved.

> And I'm not denying gay marriage.  Go, live happily in their nature denial.

Being gay is their nature. Living different would be living in denial.

At which point a pointer to Janis Ian's song "When I Lay Down" would be 
appropriate. Yet, not even quasi-legally available on youtube :(
well, here are the lyrics: 
http://www.janisian.com/graphics/BBwhen-i-lay-down-lyric.jpg
and a short musical abstract on e.g. 
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Billies-Bones-Janis-Ian/dp/B0001ACK5C/

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On Tue, 06 Jan 2009 16:41:27 -0500, nemesis wrote:

> Darren New <dne### [at] sanrrcom> wrote:
>> nemesis wrote:
>> > Ok, bad joke asides, hermaphrodites are special cases.
>>
>> And the answer to them is...?  :)
>>
>> I mean, that's the point, isn't it? The Bible doesn't special-case
>> them, so on what grounds do you make your decision, if you're denying
>> gay marriage on the grounds that God only creates unambiguously men and
>> women?
> 
> Most gays are not hermaphrodites.
> 
> And I'm not denying gay marriage.  Go, live happily in their nature
> denial.

But you are avoiding the question Darren is asking.

What's the answer for hermaphrodites who want to marry another human 
being?  Who are they allowed to marry?  Who are they not allowed to marry?

Be specific.

Jim

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