I use Moray.  But I 90% go back into the script file and
hand-tweek it.  I'm interested in quicker modeling using the
scripts Moray outputs so I can get to animating faster, but that
is my personal approach- others like to hand-code their
animations.  I like to write little bits of code to help automate
certain tedious tasks for me.

Your idea with M. in grey boxes would be fine to me, but
consider: Moray comes with some extensive Docs of its own, and I
can't see why a book should tutor people on any of the same
material already covered by the tutorials that come with Moray. 
A tips and *undocumented* tricks approach to covering Moray would
be more interesting to me.

-peter

Mitchell Waite wrote:
> 
> I have been considering using Moray as the tool for modeling since it allows
> on to focus on the scene rather than the statements. The idea would be to
> teach the statements but at each statement show how to do the same thing in
> Moray. I would like to hear opinions on this idea. I have been told the most
> people DO NOT use modeling tools and that mixing up pure pov ray statements
> and a modeling program would be useless for many users. I was thinking the
> Moray parts would be in gray boxes inside the pages so they could be
> ignored, but that may still turn some people off. Comments?
> 
> thanks
> 
> Mitch

-- 
Current obsession: "Ballet pour ma fille."
http://www.applesnake.net

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That *is* an odd detail to Moray that one day should just be
bitten off, chewed, and fixed.  It would mean recoding to a lot
of apps out there, but the longer we go...

Heck it could be an output option in the scripts, no?

Harold Baize wrote:
> 
> I've always had a problem with Moray, primarily because it
> uses reverse (right handed) polar coordinates, and I find
> the syntax output difficult to read. I think it would be better
> to do the same thing using sPatch or Hamapatch.
> 
> HB
> 
> "Mitchell Waite" <mit### [at] dnaicom> wrote in message
> news:3c48471b@news.povray.org...
> > I have been considering using Moray as the tool for modeling since it
> allows
> > on to focus on the scene rather than the statements. The idea would be to
> > teach the statements but at each statement show how to do the same thing
> in
> > Moray. I would like to hear opinions on this idea. I have been told the
> most
> > people DO NOT use modeling tools and that mixing up pure pov ray
> statements
> > and a modeling program would be useless for many users. I was thinking the
> > Moray parts would be in gray boxes inside the pages so they could be
> > ignored, but that may still turn some people off. Comments?
> >
> > thanks
> >
> > Mitch
> >
> >

-- 
Current obsession: "Ballet pour ma fille."
http://www.applesnake.net

Post a reply to this message

3c48471b@news.povray.org...
> I have been told the most people DO NOT use modeling tools and that mixing
up pure
> pov ray statements and a modeling program would be useless for many users.
> I was thinking the Moray parts would be in gray boxes inside the pages so
they could be
> ignored, but that may still turn some people off. Comments?

1. From the many past discussions here about modeling tools vs scripting, we
can safely assume that while external modelers can be good products (moray
but also blender, spatch, hamapatch, anim8tor, amapi, rhino etc.), useful
enough for many users (those who don't like to code) and sometimes the only
way to get things done (organic shapes), it's impossible to really unleash
povray's power without learning the scene description language. And some of
the coolest povray stuff is not implemented in these modelers yet. For this
reason, I believe that any useful povray book should focus on the SDL.
Modelers could be part of the book but they should have their own section.

2. I think that editing a book about Povray is a task that requires a good
knowledge of the current state of the software and of the current nature of
its users. It has changed a lot since the pioneer years ! My friendly
suggestion would be that you hang around in these groups for a few months to
get a clearer picture of what people actually need.

G.


--

**********************
http://www.oyonale.com
**********************
- Graphic experiments
- POV-Ray and Poser computer images
- Posters

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Mitchell Waite wrote:
> 
> I have been considering using Moray as the tool for modeling since it allows
> on to focus on the scene rather than the statements. The idea would be to
> teach the statements but at each statement show how to do the same thing in
> Moray. I would like to hear opinions on this idea. I have been told the most
> people DO NOT use modeling tools and that mixing up pure pov ray statements
> and a modeling program would be useless for many users. I was thinking the
> Moray parts would be in gray boxes inside the pages so they could be
> ignored, but that may still turn some people off. Comments?

I think this combination is not a good idea, if someone wants a book on
Povray, he won't like to get one where half the content is only relevant
for those using Moray.  On the other hand a hardcore Moray user would not
be interested in those features of Povray that are not supported by Moray.

Furthermore the structure of a book about Moray would should be quite
different from one about Povray. And of course there are also other
modelers...

So maybe it would be good to add some introductory chapters for different
modelers to a book about Povray, but mixing it into the main stuff would
be quite problematic.

Christoph

-- 
Christoph Hormann <chr### [at] gmxde>
IsoWood include, radiosity tutorial, TransSkin and other 
things on: http://www.schunter.etc.tu-bs.de/~chris/

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as you know, povray is a raytracer and not a modeller.  most people
don't go very long before they want the capabilities of a modeller, and
povray would not be nearly as cool as it is if you couldn't import stuff
from outside modellers.

i would definitely recommend that you incorporate one or several
chapters that use low-dollar or freeware modellers.  personally, i would
recommend hamapatch and moray.  spatch is not a bad modeller, but
it is no longer under development and hamapatch is considered as good
or better and is actively being improved.

a question:  have you downloaded the 3.5 beta?  if not, you better
quit talking the talk and start walking the walk.  ;-)

good luck with the book.  you have the group's support.

miker


Mitchell Waite <mit### [at] dnaicom> wrote in message
news:3c48471b@news.povray.org...
> I have been considering using Moray as the tool for modeling since it
allows
> on to focus on the scene rather than the statements. The idea would be to
> teach the statements but at each statement show how to do the same thing
in
> Moray. I would like to hear opinions on this idea. I have been told the
most
> people DO NOT use modeling tools and that mixing up pure pov ray
statements
> and a modeling program would be useless for many users. I was thinking the
> Moray parts would be in gray boxes inside the pages so they could be
> ignored, but that may still turn some people off. Comments?
>
> thanks
>
> Mitch
>
>

Post a reply to this message

"Mitchell Waite" <mit### [at] dnaicom> wrote in message
news:3c48471b@news.povray.org...
> mixing up pure pov ray statements and a modeling program would be useless
for many users

What is a modeller?

Post a reply to this message

While Moray may be the most well know modeler, it is far from the only
one and is in no way required for use of povray. Including it in the book
may give that impression and since Moray is a commercial concern, but povray
is not, I think it would be innappropriate. If they are giving you a
kick-back, nothing will change your mind, but if they are not, how will we
ever know?

    Ethical dilemmas aside, grey boxes with generic modeling advice might be
good, maybe also giving various specific examples of the many available
modelers in rotation.

(example)

    Graph your spline on graph paper and transfer the points into the prism
syntaxt like this... blablah

    <greybox> Most prisms can be made in spline editors which allow youto
...blablah. In Alessandro Falappa's SplininEditor
http://www.flashnet.it/users/fn027571/spil/index.html Turn grid on, click on
the points, save then use "Export > POV" to create an include
file...blablah. </greybox>

Post a reply to this message

All:

Some people say that the POV Ray SDL is a turn off for new users, others say
that modeling programs are a turn off to scripters. There seems to be a real
schism here. There are issues with Moray's right handed polar coordinates,
and others think sPartch or Hamapatch are a better choice (though I have not
heard why they are).

When I was speaking of putting Moray text in a gray box I did not mean that
text would reproduce the user docs in Moray. I don't see this book idea as
competing with either Moray or POV Ray docs, that would be a waste of trees.
I want to improve the tutorials, not compete with them. I think that the
tutorials in the POV Ray and Moray docs are very uneven, some are great,
some are okay, and some are poor (meaning not step by step)

I know very little about these other products: blender, spatch, hamapatch,
anim8tor, amapi, rhino. I have tried blender but it would not run properly
on my Win2K machine with dual LCD monitors. Are these all freeware programs,
because the one disconnect with Moray is that its retail product and that
does not work very well with the free nature of POV. What about including
some of these products in the gray text, would that be a turn off?

I wonder about the statement "it's impossible to really unleash povray's
power without learning the scene description language"? How is that true?
"And some of the coolest povray stuff is not implemented in these modelers
yet." Well there is SO MUCH stuff in POV Ray that is implemented in these
modelers that I am not sure a book needs to cover everything in POV Ray,
that seems like a daunting and almost impossible requirement.

"Furthermore the structure of a book about Moray would should be quite
different from one about Povray." I don't see how this follows. Why would
they have to have different structures? Seems like "here is how to do
something in POV" could easily be parallel with "here is how its done in
Moray", or whatever modeler you are using.

I very much appreciate the feedback, its helping me calibrate my ideas for
the team that is forming. Nothing has been decided so this is a great time
for people to jump in and help shape this project.

Mitchell Waite
former publisher of Ray Tracing Creations (the first offiicial POV Ray
retail book), Fractal Creations, Image Lab, Ray Tracing World and too many
others to put here. See www.mitchwaite.com for the history of Waite Group
Press.

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hi mitchell,

there's no doubt that whether you should include information or objects from
other software packages is a very big question.  on one hand, somebody is
buying a book on povray.  why should they have to deal with other software?
on the other hand, the use of other software enriches the povray experience.

i feel that the bottom line (and from your last post, i believe this is
where your
thinking is headed) is that you need to include a few chapters on some
modeller.
povray is a great raytracer.  doing a lot of 3D stuff requires a modeller
too.
and obviously the modeller (or modellers) you choose should be priced close
to povray.  it would be ridiculous to use studio max or maya as the
modeller.
you should definitely choose a package that exports to pov.  having to go
thru
another conversion app is messy and just muddies the water.

although you are hesitant about moray because it is not free, it is still
closely
integrated to pov, and complements it well.

hamapatch has a strong following also.

spatch is dead.  its a nice program but no longer under development.  avoid
it.

blender and some of the other apps you mention are full-blown tracers AND
modellers.  they are both modellers AND renderers.  if you model with them,
there's some question as to why you would want to come back to povray to
render.  although a povray render might be superior, a lot of people might
question the trade-off value.  it would lessen the impact and value of your
book.

my recommendation:  at least use hamapatch, and consider using moray
also.

good luck, miker

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"Rick [Kitty5]" wrote:
> Mitchell Waite wrote:
> > I have been considering using Moray as the tool for modeling since it
> allows
> > on to focus on the scene rather than the statements. The idea would be to
> > teach the statements but at each statement show how to do the same thing
> in
> > Moray. I would like to hear opinions on this idea. I have been told the
> most
> > people DO NOT use modeling tools and that mixing up pure pov ray
> statements
> > and a modeling program would be useless for many users. I was thinking the
> > Moray parts would be in gray boxes inside the pages so they could be
> > ignored, but that may still turn some people off. Comments?
> 
> personnally think the pov script itself is the biggest turn off for pov
> newbies, it also has to be noted that pov script while being very suitable
> for some projects it totally unsuited to others.

If it weren't for Moray, I would have given up on POV.  

However, as the complexity of my objects increased, the display (at that
time) got more and more cluttered, to the point where it became
unusable.  But by that time, I had learned enough about POV (and seen
enough examples of how Moray generated my scenes) to be able to give up
Moray, for the most part.  

> --
> 
> Rick

-- 
Tom A.
"No doubt many that post deserve to be flamed.  And many that are flamed
didn't deserve it.  Can you give them the latter?  Then don't be so
quick to deal out the former!" - not Gandalf.
Deja mail is gone.  Look for me at raugost at yahoo . com

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