On Tue, 10 Aug 1999 20:39:47 -0400, Matt Giwer <mgi### [at] giwersworldorg> wrote:
>This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
>--------------AD72158577FF48AA6FA382F9
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>	That confirms TIN being a primitive newreader. 

No, it confirms that Netscape and Microsoft wouldn't recognize the relevant RFC
if it was crammed up their collective asses one page at a time.  Any decent
newsreader has the same problem with vcards.

>	So now the polite request is to switch modes depending upon
>which newsgroup? 

No, the polite request is and has been to ditch the vcard.  Only other Netscape
users can make any use of it, and it conveys no additional useful information.

>> I'm usually happy to just ignore it, but when people are wrong and then
>> get belligerent about their right to be wrong rather than solving the
>> problem, it starts to bother me.
>
>	So far as I can tell, one person appears to have a problem. And
>his problem is that his newsreader is the lowest common
>denominator. And if you do not mind, that bothers me. If someone
>wants to complain my website is not compatible with Lynx, I do
>not think my response would be belligerant. 

Actually, I count at least three different people who have said vcards
irritate them.  My newsreader is hardly the least common denominator
(the math guy in me says there is no such thing anyway) as it has features
yours doesn't and never will, such as the ability to score posts. 

>	As to rude, I direct your attention to his first post to me on
>the subject.

I see.  The fact that he was rude to you justifies you being rude to him.
I'm so glad I skipped kindergarten, if that's what they're teaching these
days.

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On Tue, 10 Aug 1999 20:43:44 -0400, Matt Giwer <mgi### [at] giwersworldorg> wrote:
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>	And if TIN is great, TIN is good, it can filter out my posts if
>they are so annoying.
>--------------B394F3AE2196077F9281459F
>Content-Type: text/x-vcard; charset=us-ascii;
> name="mgiwer.vcf"
>Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
>Content-Description: Card for Matt Giwer
>Content-Disposition: attachment;
> filename="mgiwer.vcf"
>
>begin:vcard 
>n:Giwer;Matt 
>tel;cell:813-694-3998
>tel;work:813-972-2574
>x-mozilla-html:FALSE
>org:Images Incarnate
>version:2.1
>email;internet:mgi### [at] giwersworldorg
>title:Owner
>adr;quoted-printable:;;14205 Nebraska Ave=0D=0A#27;Tampa;FL;33613;USA
>fn:Matt Giwer
>end:vcard
>
>--------------B394F3AE2196077F9281459F--

True.  Warp was just giving you a chance to fix your problem before taking
such a drastic step.  Oh... by the way... find the two lines of content in 
the 20+ lines of quoted material above.  Quickly now.  Time's a wastin'.

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Ron Parker wrote:

> On Tue, 10 Aug 1999 20:39:47 -0400, Matt Giwer <mgi### [at] giwersworldorg> wrote:

> >       That confirms TIN being a primitive newreader.

> No, it confirms that Netscape and Microsoft wouldn't recognize the relevant RFC
> if it was crammed up their collective asses one page at a time.  Any decent
> newsreader has the same problem with vcards.

	I am unaware NS and MS being thrown off the RFC committees for
failure to comply. While I agree unix is the best OS available, I
find its users generally an unsurly lot when it comes to their
self-perceived superiority in using it. And, yes, I have used it
and VMS and some other long dead and happily so OSs. 

> >       So now the polite request is to switch modes depending upon
> >which newsgroup?

> No, the polite request is and has been to ditch the vcard.  Only other Netscape
> users can make any use of it, and it conveys no additional useful information.

	Did I miss that post? Can you direct me to it? 

> >       So far as I can tell, one person appears to have a problem. And
> >his problem is that his newsreader is the lowest common
> >denominator. And if you do not mind, that bothers me. If someone
> >wants to complain my website is not compatible with Lynx, I do
> >not think my response would be belligerant.

> Actually, I count at least three different people who have said vcards
> irritate them.  My newsreader is hardly the least common denominator
> (the math guy in me says there is no such thing anyway) as it has features
> yours doesn't and never will, such as the ability to score posts.

	Scoring posts, now that appears to be a useful one. If slrn is
to great it has the ability to filter. Use it. No difference to
me. 

	As to three people it annoys and for the math guy in you, that
is (users<sub>tot</sub> - 3) who are at least polite enough to
deal with the world as it is. Is that number significantly
different from (users<sub>tot</sub> - 1)? 

> >       As to rude, I direct your attention to his first post to me on
> >the subject.

> I see.  The fact that he was rude to you justifies you being rude to him.
> I'm so glad I skipped kindergarten, if that's what they're teaching these
> days.

	Now that was clever. A kindergarten reference. Have any more
from the Dale Carnegie manual? 

	You folks are really insisting upon a pissing contest to waste
disk space. Why is it so important to you?

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Ron Parker wrote:

> True.  Warp was just giving you a chance to fix your problem before taking
> such a drastic step.  Oh... by the way... find the two lines of content in
> the 20+ lines of quoted material above.  Quickly now.  Time's a wastin'.

	Who is he to give me a chance? A chance for what? To have the
pleasure of his reading my posts? Why would I care? Was
l&oumlaut; mit diese Bild? (Wrong assumed_gamma I guess.)

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Ron Parker <par### [at] fwicom> wrote:
: I have never been so happy to be wrong in my life.  It's "common knowledge"
: that tin doesn't do references-based threading, but from your pictures it's
: apparent that the common knowledge, like most such, is wrong.  In that case,
: stick with tin.  It's far better than anything Netscape will ever produce.

  That allegation about tin has been true for long time, but since the
newest version appeared (about a half or one year ago), it has supported
threading, ansi colors, mouse (yes, mouse; through xterm; incredible, eh?),
etc.
  I use netscape to read the binaries groups, but it's too heavy for regular
news reading (specially in this computer (sparcstation 4) which is quite
slow).

-- 
main(i,_){for(_?--i,main(i+2,"FhhQHFIJD|FQTITFN]zRFHhhTBFHhhTBFysdB"[i]
):5;i&&_>1;printf("%s",_-70?_&1?"[]":" ":(_=0,"\n")),_/=2);} /*- Warp -*/

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Matt Giwer <mgi### [at] giwersworldorg> wrote:
: 	And if TIN is great, TIN is good, it can filter out my posts if
: they are so annoying.

  Actually tin can do it, but even when you would never know that I'm
automatically ignoring your posts, I find it more insulting than your
flamewar posts about your vcard. I have never put anyone in my kill-file
and wouldn't want to start now.
  It would be nice, however, if you would post articles like anyone else.
What's the big deal, anyways? What's the problem in making just a signature
like anyone else? What's the problem with you? Why do you start a flame war?
What's so special with a vcard anyways?

-- 
main(i,_){for(_?--i,main(i+2,"FhhQHFIJD|FQTITFN]zRFHhhTBFHhhTBFysdB"[i]
):5;i&&_>1;printf("%s",_-70?_&1?"[]":" ":(_=0,"\n")),_/=2);} /*- Warp -*/

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On Tue, 10 Aug 1999 22:58:00 -0400, Matt Giwer wrote:
>This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
>--------------8CE1C261FF06580E281FB01C
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
>
>Ron Parker wrote:
>
>> On Tue, 10 Aug 1999 20:39:47 -0400, Matt Giwer <mgi### [at] giwersworldorg> wrote:
>
>> >       That confirms TIN being a primitive newreader.
>
>> No, it confirms that Netscape and Microsoft wouldn't recognize the relevant RFC
>> if it was crammed up their collective asses one page at a time.  Any decent
>> newsreader has the same problem with vcards.
>
>	I am unaware NS and MS being thrown off the RFC committees for
>failure to comply. 

There is no RFC committee.  There never was.  There never will be.  And neither
Netscape nor Microsoft would care anyway, as they're too busy carving out 
"market share" to want to bother with standards.

>
>> >       So now the polite request is to switch modes depending upon
>> >which newsgroup?
>
>> No, the polite request is and has been to ditch the vcard.  Only other Netscape
>> users can make any use of it, and it conveys no additional useful information.
>
>	Did I miss that post? Can you direct me to it? 

That would be the one where Warp said "get rid of the vcard crap."

>	Scoring posts, now that appears to be a useful one. If slrn is
>to great it has the ability to filter. Use it. No difference to
>me. 

Works for me.  Welcome to my killfile.  If it seems lonely, that's because
it is.  The only company you'll have in there is a few threads, because 
none of the other people on here have been stupid enough to end up there.

>	As to three people it annoys and for the math guy in you, that
>is (users<sub>tot</sub> - 3) who are at least polite enough to
>deal with the world as it is. Is that number significantly
>different from (users<sub>tot</sub> - 1)? 

Ugh.  HTML to do math.  When will it end?  Everyone knows you use TeX to
do math. :)  I should point out that the four (I was mistaken) users who
have objected to vcards are among the most prolific posters and helpful
people on this server.  I would have thought their opinion was worth 
something to you.

>	You folks are really insisting upon a pissing contest to waste
>disk space. Why is it so important to you?

Because we'd like to be able to read your posts.  Well, everyone but 
me anyway.  I couldn't care less at this point.

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On 11 Aug 1999 02:17:35 -0400, Nieminen Mika wrote:
>  That allegation about tin has been true for long time, but since the
>newest version appeared (about a half or one year ago), it has supported
>threading, ansi colors, mouse (yes, mouse; through xterm; incredible, eh?),
>etc.

I'm glad to hear that.  Looks like it's catching up with slrn, then. :)
My slrn doesn't have mouse support, but I guess that's okay since I'm
running it under Windows in a command prompt (except when I'm running
it under Linux on a box with no X installed.)

>  I use netscape to read the binaries groups, but it's too heavy for regular
>news reading (specially in this computer (sparcstation 4) which is quite
>slow).

Likewise.  Plus, I find it occasionally loses huge blocks of posts from
the one group I do read with it.

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Ok guys,

Now that you have fought for a while (and provided me with some amusing
reading) I would like to comment on your war of words.

I am probably one of those hated outsiders because I am using Outlook
Express as a newsreader. I admit to occasional use of Netscape's newsreader
(now in version 4.61). Perhaps that alone disqualifies me from partaking in
this thread but I take my chances.

I also noticed that a few posters use VCards. They show up as a little icon
identifying them immediately as a VCard. So unless I want to get additional
info about the guy who posted I simply ignore them. Actually, my newsreaders
are smart enough to identify the type of attachment.

As far as sigs are concerned I usually ignore them too. Some are really
funny but after a while ... well, let's skip that. Oh, the ones that are
supposed to resemble something and use all those funny characters are the
worst because unless you use a typewriter font they appear just like
garbage.

One thing that struck me while following the discussion (which, btw, is
really way off topic) is that some of you use a newsreader from the old
times, i.e. when the net was used only by students and other members of the
mental elite. Yet, all of you cannot wait until a new version of PoV-Ray
comes out. That IMHO is schizophrenic.

I think if you want to use your newsreader of choice and it cannot process
certain data in a way you like you either have to accept that or do
something about your application. The net is a place where people can meet
without prejudice or bias, irrespective of sex, color, belief or OS and
newsreader for that matter. And whatnot.

BTW, I am annoyed by the fact that people post huge files w/o letting me
know how large they are. So I only find out after the fact that it takes
ages to download over a phone line. Obviously, the posters have fast
Internet access or are a lot more patient than I am. Yet, I do not flame
them or ask them to not post or use a smaller resolution for their images or
do this and do that. They have a choice of medium and so do I.

Take care, guys. This newsgroup would not be what it is without you and your
contributions!

.....Opinions are my own....
Bernd M. Jordan
URL: http://members.aol.com/berndmj/

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Nieminen Mika wrote:

>   It would be nice, however, if you would post articles like anyone else.
> What's the big deal, anyways? What's the problem in making just a signature
> like anyone else? What's the problem with you? Why do you start a flame war?
> What's so special with a vcard anyways?
>
> --
> main(i,_){for(_?--i,main(i+2,"FhhQHFIJD|FQTITFN]zRFHhhTBFHhhTBFysdB"[i]
> ):5;i&&_>1;printf("%s",_-70?_&1?"[]":" ":(_=0,"\n")),_/=2);} /*- Warp -*/

I agree with Nieminen in the following sense. If Matt were someone who post
seldom in this news group it could be interesting to send a vcard with the
messages. But this is not the case. Matt is one of us that post the most
regularly. So his vcard is a little bit boring and to some people here
annoying. Matt, for me it would be fine if you just put  your name at the end
of your messages.

Regards, Alberto.

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