Ken wrote:
> 
> Warp wrote:
> 
> > : and it's a very powerful text manipulation interactive tools.
> >
> >   I didn't say it's not powerful. I said that it's incredibly user-unfriendly.
> 
> Must have been written by one of the Blender authors :)

Remember the only true word processing system? VT52 + TeX + vi

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Francois Dispot <woz### [at] club-internetfr> wrote:
: Remember the only true word processing system? VT52 + TeX + vi

  If you had said X + LaTex + Emacs, I would agree.

-- 
#macro N(D,I)#if(I<6)cylinder{M()#local D[I]=div(D[I],104);M().5,2pigment{
rgb M()}}N(D,(D[I]>99?I:I+1))#end#end#macro M()<mod(D[I],13)-6,mod(div(D[I
],13),8)-3,10>#end blob{N(array[6]{11117333955,
7382340,3358,3900569407,970,4254934330},0)}//                     - Warp -

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Warp wrote:
> 
> Francois Dispot <woz### [at] club-internetfr> wrote:
> : Remember the only true word processing system? VT52 + TeX + vi
> 
>   If you had said X + LaTex + Emacs, I would agree.

Here, we can feel the gap between the generations...
Having the work done right without or with fancy wysiwyg and display.

Well, looks like I prefer the old one, because it need less resources,
so put less stress on a shared system.

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:>   If you had said X + LaTex + Emacs, I would agree.

: Here, we can feel the gap between the generations...
: Having the work done right without or with fancy wysiwyg and display.

  LaTeX + Emacs is not a WYSIWYG system.

  Granted, xdvi allows you to visualize the document in the final form, but
this still isn't WYSIWYG because you don't edit the document directly in
the final form (xdvi is just a viewer, not an editor).
  Of course it's extremely useful to see what you are doing, even if it's
not in real time (^C^C, a couple of seconds of waiting depending on the
length of the document, and then switch to the xdvi window).

  If current computer resources allow you to do this kind of visualization,
why not do it?

-- 
#macro N(D,I)#if(I<6)cylinder{M()#local D[I]=div(D[I],104);M().5,2pigment{
rgb M()}}N(D,(D[I]>99?I:I+1))#end#end#macro M()<mod(D[I],13)-6,mod(div(D[I
],13),8)-3,10>#end blob{N(array[6]{11117333955,
7382340,3358,3900569407,970,4254934330},0)}//                     - Warp -

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Francois Dispot wrote:
> 
> Remember the only true word processing system? VT52 + TeX + vi

I'd prefer a VT510.  :-)

-- 
Adrien Beau - adr### [at] freefr - http://adrien.beau.free.fr
 Mes propos n'engagent que moi et en aucun cas mes employeurs

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Maybe that was misstated by me...
"It probably does/would but I use the IDE Editor..."
There that should be better
Warp wrote:
> 
> Mr. Art <mra### [at] chesapeakenet> wrote:
> : It probably does/would if I didn't use the IDE Editor
> : that comes with the developers install...
> 
>   So Vim doesn't work in BeOS because you use the IDE Editor?
> 
> --
> #macro N(D,I)#if(I<6)cylinder{M()#local D[I]=div(D[I],104);M().5,2pigment{
> rgb M()}}N(D,(D[I]>99?I:I+1))#end#end#macro M()<mod(D[I],13)-6,mod(div(D[I
> ],13),8)-3,10>#end blob{N(array[6]{11117333955,
> 7382340,3358,3900569407,970,4254934330},0)}//                     - Warp -

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On 29 Aug 2001 09:07:29 -0400, Warp <war### [at] tagpovrayorg> wrote:

<a lot of nice stuff about Emacs>

>  However, these vi editors are just incredibly user-unfriendly. You just
>CAN'T use them right away. It's completely impossible:

I know :) As does anyone who's been using Vim. And also as anyone
who's been using Vim, I know that you may not be able to use it right
away, but if you use it the right way... oh, boy!

* make & run from within the editor
* catch compiler error messages and skip to that line(s)
* jump to and fro tags
* call grep and jump up and down the matches
* char, line & block selection, deletion, cut & paste
* repeat last command (seems simple, but combined with the editing
modes such as insert, delete, change, overwrite etc. it's very
powerful)
* line wrapping & line joining
* auto-space removal & insertion when copying & pasting
* auto-indent (*very* good!)
* etc.

And of course I wouldn't even mention the cons :) You know them
already :)

About the only one I'll mention is that I keep typing 'i'-s in front
of, or 'cw'-s in the middle of everything I edit outside Vim, and I
keep trying to ':w <CR> :mak' my POV scenes in Windows :)


Peter Popov ICQ : 15002700
Personal e-mail : pet### [at] vipbg
TAG      e-mail : pet### [at] tagpovrayorg

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Emacs supports all that and more.

  I don't know how vi editors are configured/programmed, but as Emacs is
an elisp interpreter, you can do almost anything using elisp. This is, in
fact, how most of emacs features have been implemented (eg. autoindentation,
keyword coloring and so on).
  Some examples of things that I have done with elisp in order to make emacs
to work more like I like it are:
  - When pressing page down/up, it doesn't only scroll a page, but also moves
the cursor the same amount of lines that are in a page.
  - When pressing ctrl-up/down, the page scrolls one line.
  - Ctrl-c-u asks for a filename and inserts it uuencoded at the cursor
current location (perfect for including binary attachments to an artice).
  - Ctrl-t removes all whitespaces from the cursor to the next
non-whitespace character (a surprisingly handy feature).
  - Ctrl-y deletes the line where the cursor is.
  And of course pc-selection-mode makes it a lot more usable...

  There are quite lots of games and other fun stuff made for emacs using elisp.

-- 
#macro N(D,I)#if(I<6)cylinder{M()#local D[I]=div(D[I],104);M().5,2pigment{
rgb M()}}N(D,(D[I]>99?I:I+1))#end#end#macro M()<mod(D[I],13)-6,mod(div(D[I
],13),8)-3,10>#end blob{N(array[6]{11117333955,
7382340,3358,3900569407,970,4254934330},0)}//                     - Warp -

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Warp wrote:
> 
>   Emacs supports all that and more.
> 
>   I don't know how vi editors are configured/programmed, but as Emacs is
> an elisp interpreter, you can do almost anything using elisp. This is, in
> fact, how most of emacs features have been implemented (eg. autoindentation,
> keyword coloring and so on).

There is a hot debate about wether or not to include a full-blown
scripting engine into Vim.

Right now, Vim is mostly C, though it has a minimal scripting
language which, combined with an intelligent file structure on
disk, makes such things as "plugins" available in Vim 6. A file
explorer has been done this way.

Apart from that, most customizations come through powerful
mappings, and by interfacing with the system if needed
(e.g. to edit files through FTP).

>   Some examples of things that I have done with elisp in order to make emacs
> to work more like I like it are:
> 
> [several nice customizations]

All this is can also be done in Vim. Some are already there
(scrolling), the others can be quickly done in a mapping.

I think we all have our favorite features, and could list
them day and night long. If only because I discover new
tricks every day or so.

Suffice to say that I don't think one is better than the other.
The way things are done varies greatly, but what counts is the
result.

-- 
Adrien Beau - adr### [at] freefr - http://adrien.beau.free.fr
 Mes propos n'engagent que moi et en aucun cas mes employeurs

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> :>   If you had said X + LaTex + Emacs, I would agree.
> 
> : Here, we can feel the gap between the generations...
> : Having the work done right without or with fancy wysiwyg and display.
> 
>   LaTeX + Emacs is not a WYSIWYG system.

Warp, I think it was joke, or perhaps just a well thought out
provocation. :-)

So let us reply: from the POV of a VI user, Emacs is of course so much
more user-friendly that it must seem like a WYSIWYG system. I mean,
with Emacs you can actually edit documents [1]. AFAIK the only thing
VI can do is playing music with the built-in speaker, see

  http://www.dina.dk/~abraham/religion/vi-music

However, introducing such derogative terms as "WYSIWYG" in this forum
is of course only to be frowned upon. Tsk, tsk. This just shows us the
mental level VI users in general have reached. (I mean, give your
5-year-old child a computer to 10.000 bucks, and he will throw it out
and play with the case instead.)



[1] This is, of course, only the least part of what The only True
Editor is capable of. As Per Abrahamsen once said (more or less), an
"editor" is the term for everything that isn't part of the OS.


PS: I hope people won't take this too serious. Flaming is only fun as
long as it is done in a friendly atmosphere.

-- 
Ole Laursen
http://sunsite.dk/olau/

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