On 24/01/2016 07:32 PM, Francois Labreque wrote:

>> The trouble with these mythical lands, much like Tolkien, is that all
>> the nouns sound so utterly identical that it's *really hard* to follow
>> what the *hell* is going on!
>
> I wonder where they got a silly idea like that!
>
> BedfordshireBerkshire
> Buckinghamshire
> Cambridgeshire
> Cheshire
> Derbyshire
> Gloucestershire
> Hampshire
> Herefordshire
> Hertfordshire <--- 1 whole character different!
> Lancashire
> Leicestershire
> Lincolnshire
> Northamptonshire
> Nottinghamshire
> Oxfordshire
> Shropshire
> Staffordshire
> Warwickshire
> Wiltshire
> Worcestershire
> East Riding of Yorkshire
> North Yorkshire
> South Yorkshire
> West Yorkshire

...and yet, The Shire is in New Zealand. Go figure.

Still, at least these are *pronounceable*! :-P I'm still trying to 
figure out Aragorn and Arwen. The way they pronounce them in the films 
is nearly indistinguishable...

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>> BedfordshireBerkshire
>> Buckinghamshire
>> Cambridgeshire
>> Cheshire
>> Derbyshire
>> Gloucestershire
>> Hampshire
>> Herefordshire
>> Hertfordshire <--- 1 whole character different!
>> Lancashire
>> Leicestershire
>> Lincolnshire
>> Northamptonshire
>> Nottinghamshire
>> Oxfordshire
>> Shropshire
>> Staffordshire
>> Warwickshire
>> Wiltshire
>> Worcestershire
>> East Riding of Yorkshire
>> North Yorkshire
>> South Yorkshire
>> West Yorkshire
>
> ...and yet, The Shire is in New Zealand. Go figure.
>
> Still, at least these are *pronounceable*! :-P

Yes they are all pronouneable if you know how to pronounce them :-) Ever 
heard foreigners trying to pronounce the ones with "cester" in them? I 
still find place names around here that I have no idea how to pronounce 
correctly, or worse find out I've been saying them wrong, and I was born 
here! Imagine what it's like for foreigners...

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>> Still, at least these are *pronounceable*! :-P
>
> Yes they are all pronouneable if you know how to pronounce them :-) Ever
> heard foreigners trying to pronounce the ones with "cester" in them? I
> still find place names around here that I have no idea how to pronounce
> correctly, or worse find out I've been saying them wrong, and I was born
> here! Imagine what it's like for foreigners...

Particularly amusing is Towcester.

(Many people try to pronounce it "toe-sester". It's actually "toaster", 
which is still a pretty stupid name...)

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Am 25.01.2016 um 11:30 schrieb scott:

> Yes they are all pronouneable if you know how to pronounce them :-) Ever
> heard foreigners trying to pronounce the ones with "cester" in them? I
> still find place names around here that I have no idea how to pronounce
> correctly, or worse find out I've been saying them wrong, and I was born
> here! Imagine what it's like for foreigners...

Bah - English place names are boring. Ever tried Irish?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hwstj9FJHGg

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On Mon, 25 Jan 2016 20:29:35 +0100, clipka wrote:

> Am 25.01.2016 um 11:30 schrieb scott:
> 
>> Yes they are all pronouneable if you know how to pronounce them :-)
>> Ever heard foreigners trying to pronounce the ones with "cester" in
>> them? I still find place names around here that I have no idea how to
>> pronounce correctly, or worse find out I've been saying them wrong, and
>> I was born here! Imagine what it's like for foreigners...
> 
> Bah - English place names are boring. Ever tried Irish?
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hwstj9FJHGg

Welsh FTW. :)

Llanfairpwllgwyngyllgogerychwyrndrobwllllantysiliogogogoch

Jim

-- 
"I learned long ago, never to wrestle with a pig. You get dirty, and 
besides, the pig likes it." - George Bernard Shaw

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Am 25.01.2016 um 21:17 schrieb Jim Henderson:
> On Mon, 25 Jan 2016 20:29:35 +0100, clipka wrote:
> 
>> Am 25.01.2016 um 11:30 schrieb scott:
>>
>>> Yes they are all pronouneable if you know how to pronounce them :-)
>>> Ever heard foreigners trying to pronounce the ones with "cester" in
>>> them? I still find place names around here that I have no idea how to
>>> pronounce correctly, or worse find out I've been saying them wrong, and
>>> I was born here! Imagine what it's like for foreigners...
>>
>> Bah - English place names are boring. Ever tried Irish?
>>
>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hwstj9FJHGg
> 
> Welsh FTW. :)
> 
> Llanfairpwllgwyngyllgogerychwyrndrobwllllantysiliogogogoch

Not really /that/ difficult. Once you've figured out what sound the "ll"
and "w" correspond to, it's pretty straightforward to pronounce. /Very/
straightforward actually, IIRC.

Irish - not so much.

Also that particular place name ist just there for the tourists, and is
actually a concatenation of two very verbose descriptive place names:
"St. Mary's [Church] by the White Aspen over the Whirlpool by
Whathaveyounot and St. Tysilio's [Church] by the Damnedifiremember", or
something along those lines. (And yes, that was from 20 year old memory.)

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On 1/25/2016 7:29 PM, clipka wrote:
> Am 25.01.2016 um 11:30 schrieb scott:
>
>> Yes they are all pronouneable if you know how to pronounce them :-) Ever
>> heard foreigners trying to pronounce the ones with "cester" in them? I
>> still find place names around here that I have no idea how to pronounce
>> correctly, or worse find out I've been saying them wrong, and I was born
>> here! Imagine what it's like for foreigners...
>
> Bah - English place names are boring. Ever tried Irish?
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hwstj9FJHGg
>

Not fair using Irish English as an example. :)
It is a bastardisation of Gaelic by people who cared not for the Irish. 
In fact despised and oppressed them. My surname, for example, has had 
its meaning lost in translation. It is generally reckoned to be: Son of; 
a blond haired man (Viking), a wanderer or a variant of Macbeth (son of 
breath/life, a title). Who knows now?
In lowland Scotland we have Auchenshuggle, Auchterarder and the well 
known Milngavie. Famous for being pronounced Mull-guy.


-- 

Regards
     Stephen

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On Mon, 25 Jan 2016 22:11:25 +0100, clipka wrote:

> Am 25.01.2016 um 21:17 schrieb Jim Henderson:
>> On Mon, 25 Jan 2016 20:29:35 +0100, clipka wrote:
>> 
>>> Am 25.01.2016 um 11:30 schrieb scott:
>>>
>>>> Yes they are all pronouneable if you know how to pronounce them :-)
>>>> Ever heard foreigners trying to pronounce the ones with "cester" in
>>>> them? I still find place names around here that I have no idea how to
>>>> pronounce correctly, or worse find out I've been saying them wrong,
>>>> and I was born here! Imagine what it's like for foreigners...
>>>
>>> Bah - English place names are boring. Ever tried Irish?
>>>
>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hwstj9FJHGg
>> 
>> Welsh FTW. :)
>> 
>> Llanfairpwllgwyngyllgogerychwyrndrobwllllantysiliogogogoch
> 
> Not really /that/ difficult. Once you've figured out what sound the "ll"
> and "w" correspond to, it's pretty straightforward to pronounce. /Very/
> straightforward actually, IIRC.
> 
> Irish - not so much.
> 
> Also that particular place name ist just there for the tourists, and is
> actually a concatenation of two very verbose descriptive place names:
> "St. Mary's [Church] by the White Aspen over the Whirlpool by
> Whathaveyounot and St. Tysilio's [Church] by the Damnedifiremember", or
> something along those lines. (And yes, that was from 20 year old
> memory.)

True, then again, you could always try something like Gaelic.  Or for a 
challenge, try a non-Romanized language; Russian, Polish, Hungarian (is 
quite interesting), Japanese, Chinese, or another similar language. :)

Jim



-- 
"I learned long ago, never to wrestle with a pig. You get dirty, and 
besides, the pig likes it." - George Bernard Shaw

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Am 26.01.2016 um 01:59 schrieb Jim Henderson:
> On Mon, 25 Jan 2016 22:11:25 +0100, clipka wrote:
> 
>> Am 25.01.2016 um 21:17 schrieb Jim Henderson:
>>> On Mon, 25 Jan 2016 20:29:35 +0100, clipka wrote:
>>>
>>>> Am 25.01.2016 um 11:30 schrieb scott:
>>>>
>>>>> Yes they are all pronouneable if you know how to pronounce them :-)
>>>>> Ever heard foreigners trying to pronounce the ones with "cester" in
>>>>> them? I still find place names around here that I have no idea how to
>>>>> pronounce correctly, or worse find out I've been saying them wrong,
>>>>> and I was born here! Imagine what it's like for foreigners...
>>>>
>>>> Bah - English place names are boring. Ever tried Irish?
>>>>
>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hwstj9FJHGg
>>>
>>> Welsh FTW. :)
>>>
>>> Llanfairpwllgwyngyllgogerychwyrndrobwllllantysiliogogogoch
>>
>> Not really /that/ difficult. Once you've figured out what sound the "ll"
>> and "w" correspond to, it's pretty straightforward to pronounce. /Very/
>> straightforward actually, IIRC.
>>
>> Irish - not so much.
>>
>> Also that particular place name ist just there for the tourists, and is
>> actually a concatenation of two very verbose descriptive place names:
>> "St. Mary's [Church] by the White Aspen over the Whirlpool by
>> Whathaveyounot and St. Tysilio's [Church] by the Damnedifiremember", or
>> something along those lines. (And yes, that was from 20 year old
>> memory.)
> 
> True, then again, you could always try something like Gaelic.

Well... I /vaguely/ recall having mention Irish ;)

> Or for a 
> challenge, try a non-Romanized language; Russian, Polish, Hungarian (is 
> quite interesting), Japanese, Chinese, or another similar language. :)

I think aside from Chinese (for rather obvious reasons) neither of them
can cope with Irish when it comes to leaving the reader puzzled as to
how an unfamiliar written word is spoken or vice versa, even when said
reader is well-versed in the script(*) used.

That's because Irish is exceptionally unconventional in how it uses the
latin script to render the language's phonemes.

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On Tue, 26 Jan 2016 08:38:43 +0100, clipka wrote:

>> True, then again, you could always try something like Gaelic.
> 
> Well... I /vaguely/ recall having mention Irish ;)

Which is not quite the same as Gaelic - or rather, Gaelic languages (6 
living langauges, a few mixed, and a few nearly dead languages - I know 
someone who's one of about 5 people in the world who speak one particular 
dialect - in Scotland).

Welsh actually is one of those languages, as is Irish.  Breton, Scotish 
Gaelic, Cornish, and Manx are the other living languages.

I can't tell you how many people mispronounce my cats' names - which are 
Manx Gaelic (and actually, relatively simple names to pronounce).

>> Or for a challenge, try a non-Romanized language; Russian, Polish,
>> Hungarian (is quite interesting), Japanese, Chinese, or another similar
>> language. :)
> 
> I think aside from Chinese (for rather obvious reasons) neither of them
> can cope with Irish when it comes to leaving the reader puzzled as to
> how an unfamiliar written word is spoken or vice versa, even when said
> reader is well-versed in the script(*) used.

Arguably, English itself has some oddities that make pronunciation 
difficult for non-native speakers to use.

For example, the made-up word 'ghoti' is often used to describe the 
idiosyncrasies of English pronunciation.  (The actual pronunciation of 
that made-up word is "fish" - gh from 'tough', o from 'women', ti from 
'nation').

> That's because Irish is exceptionally unconventional in how it uses the
> latin script to render the language's phonemes.

Another that strikes me as in a similar class is Catalan - though a fair 
amount of the 'misunderstanding' of Catalan vs. European Spanish is less 
a lack of understanding based on mispronunciation and more what some 
might just term as 'dickishness'. :)

Jim

-- 
"I learned long ago, never to wrestle with a pig. You get dirty, and 
besides, the pig likes it." - George Bernard Shaw

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