On 24/12/2013 6:56 PM, Jim Henderson wrote:
> On Tue, 24 Dec 2013 15:56:15 +0000, Stephen wrote:
>
>> On 23/12/2013 9:48 PM, Jim Henderson wrote:
>>> Seems the OED accepts the Americanised version as well as the British
>>> version. :P
>>
>> Sigh! You have worn me down. Maths it is.
>
> ;)
>
> Jim
>
;-)

-- 
Regards
     Stephen

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On 12/24/2013 2:08 AM, Warp wrote:
> Lars R. <rou### [at] gmxde> wrote:
>> And to do this, you should calm down your own citizens so they don't
>> disturb your pervert game. And how to do that: Keep them dumb (e.g. by
>> shorting a broad education in your population), tell them again and
>> again your lies that you're fighting a common enemy, until even the last
>> one in your country beleave it without doubt. (And only a few remind
>> that your current "enemy" was bred by yourself some years ago. History
>> repeats itself.)
>
> You do realize that many muslim terrorist attacks have been executed by
> muslims who had lived and studied for years in a western country, some
> of them even having a higher education?
>
> It's more than just education. It is very much about the religion and
> its indocrination.
>
> I think that a very good demonstration of this is that recently a poll
> was performed in the UK, and one of the questions was about homosexuals.
>  From the about 500 muslims that participated in the poll exactly 100%
> opposed homosexuals. Many of these muslims had been born in the UK and
> had studied there all their lives.
>
Some of that can be fear too. Since its not acceptable to Islam, and 
Islam doesn't have a lot of flexibility in such matters, unlike 
Christians, who have sidelined their stricter sects, in favor of more 
"love thy neighbor", than, "follow the rules", there is bound to be a 
certain level of, "If I pick anything other than what Islam says I 
should put down, then someone might find out, and I am going to not just 
be in trouble with Allah, but other people.", going on with those polls.

Someone else was recently talking about the difference they saw between 
what polls showed that Muslims thought in the Netherlands (I think it 
was..), and the reality of dealing with those people every day (and it 
was a Muslim saying this). They stated that the reality was not what the 
polls reflected. That the polls showed the "official" stance, the one 
the members where worried someone might find out they disagreed with, 
which someone more hardline might call them on, and they would get in 
major trouble over, if they where found out, but that the reality was 
that almost no one they knew actually thought that way in reality.

In other words, its a case of, "I will go along with the hate and anger, 
because someone might be watching." Their real attitudes may not in fact 
reflect, at all, what the polls show, but they "think" that the polls do 
show the real view, and none of them are willing to risk sticking their 
head up, and finding out how many people around them agree with them 
about it. They might turn out to be alone, and everyone else against them.

Pretty much the same thing has happened with every religion, if it comes 
to that. Those that want to change risk everything, from their 
perspective, to change things, or.. they turn on each other, to protect 
themselves, because they are sure the ones that disagree outnumber them. 
The real numbers might be 80% not giving a damn, but every single one of 
those 80% is "standing alone", in a sea of people that they are sure 
will condemn them for holding such an ungodly view.

That said, the other factor, specific to Western education, is culture 
shock. The openness of the West runs very contrary to what most of these 
people ever dealt with, and there are only two reactions you can have, 
either abandon faith, or harden it, when confronted with the dissonance 
between such vast successes, and denial of so much of the supposed 
"righteous ideals" of a religion. Either it has be been gained via some 
sort of cheat, or.. your faith has to be wrong, for someone steeped so 
heavily in belief, and, they have already been fed plenty of, "They 
cheated their way to success!", already, in most cases. But, its also 
the "earn a degree, so you can wave it around, while denying the things 
you got a degree in.", thing too, for some. There may be no intention at 
all, from the start, to broaden their views, or learn. It is all about 
learning the trappings of the West, so they can, while completely 
failing to understand the subject, (much like certain creationists 
getting degrees in biology, or geology, then turning that info in to a 
distorted pretzel, for their own invalid arguments), present what, but 
only to them, and other believers, sound like plausible explanations 
about how the West works, and what its been doing.

The sad thing is, some of the crap certain political elements, 
especially in the US, pull, would be enough to make an argument, without 
needing to make crap up. But, that's not how propaganda works. You have 
to keep shoveling new crap on the fire, to keep it going, otherwise they 
might have time to look around and wonder what you are screwing up, 
which has helped make life miserable, even without the West being 
involved in it.

But, the have, at least to some extent, had a few nasty surprises (like 
the Arab Summer), where it turned out people where not as stupid and 
sheep like as they thought they where. But, yeah.. fear, I think, plays 
far more in those poll results, that the actual real opinions, when 
dealing with real people, instead of ideas.

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Patrick Elliott <kag### [at] gmailcom> wrote:
> They stated that the reality was not what the 
> polls reflected. That the polls showed the "official" stance, the one 
> the members where worried someone might find out they disagreed with, 
> which someone more hardline might call them on, and they would get in 
> major trouble over, if they where found out, but that the reality was 
> that almost no one they knew actually thought that way in reality.

That, in itself, is a big problem with many muslim subcultures in the
west (ie. the peer pressure that doesn't seem to be as strong as ever.)

As politically incorrect as it is to say, the culture itself is to blame,
and muslims will not get over that problem until it's changed.

Of course the problem is only aggravated by the western mentality that
says to them: "Your culture and your religion are very valuable, you
should keep them, embrace them and treasure them. It's your cultural
heritage and it would be a great loss if it were to be muddied and mixed
with the western culture."

This sentiment is very naive because it only thinks about the positive
things of the exotic culture, completely ignoring the negative things,
pretending that those are not *really* part of the culture. However,
no matter how we try to pretend that it's not part of their culture,
the sad fact is that it is, and we are only encouraging them to keep
it that way and not making a change for the better.

(This is, by the way, the main reason why I oppose the burkha as a
matter of principle. The politically correct segment of our society
wants to think of it as "freedom to dress in whatever way you want."
However, that's not what the burkha represents at all in muslim cultures,
and what's worse, the PC segment knows this perfectly well, but still
deliberately ignores the fact. The burkha in most islamic cultures is
a sign of submission. To these cultures, only a woman dressed in a
burkha is chaste and virtuous, while a woman "exposing herself" is
a whore. Not in all islamic cultures, of course, but in many. The
burkha pretty much represents the exact *opposite* of "you are free
to dress in whatever you want." More blatantly, it's only imposed on
women; men are free to do whatever they want. And that is why I oppose
the custom as a matter of principle. It's sexist and in direct opposition
to the most basic concepts of freedom and equality.)

> That said, the other factor, specific to Western education, is culture 
> shock. The openness of the West runs very contrary to what most of these 
> people ever dealt with

Note that many, if not most, of those muslims had been born in the west
and lived and studied their whole lives here. It shouldn't be as much a
cultural shock to them.

-- 
                                                          - Warp

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On 12/27/2013 3:48 PM, Warp wrote:
> (This is, by the way, the main reason why I oppose the burkha as a
> matter of principle. The politically correct segment of our society
> wants to think of it as "freedom to dress in whatever way you want."
> However, that's not what the burkha represents at all in muslim cultures,
> and what's worse, the PC segment knows this perfectly well, but still
> deliberately ignores the fact. The burkha in most islamic cultures is
> a sign of submission. To these cultures, only a woman dressed in a
> burkha is chaste and virtuous, while a woman "exposing herself" is
> a whore. Not in all islamic cultures, of course, but in many. The
> burkha pretty much represents the exact *opposite* of "you are free
> to dress in whatever you want." More blatantly, it's only imposed on
> women; men are free to do whatever they want. And that is why I oppose
> the custom as a matter of principle. It's sexist and in direct opposition
> to the most basic concepts of freedom and equality.)
>
This I 99% agree with. I have trouble wrapping my head around the people 
that propose the idea of taking the symbol and using it to empower. It 
might empower "them", but it doesn't do a damn thing for the rest of the 
women around the world. But, then, in the long run, there "might" be 
value in turning it into a meaningless costume, instead. Just.. its no 
wear close to that, and its not going to become that, *until* is really 
is choice, not forced on them, either by religion, or their own false 
sense of modesty/shame. Its no better if you oppress yourself, and in 
the process, perpetuate the stupid ideas that allowed it to become a set 
of chains, holding you down. We get a lot of the same stupid things even 
in Western culture, where "choices" are made, not based on what woman 
want, but are taught to think they should "expect", or "be like". They 
are just not so violently enforced, but, never the less, when, say.. a 
rape happens, the first thing trotted out is a long list of excuses 
about what she wore, did, thought, where she was, what she did/didn't 
say, etc. And, worse, juries fall for that crap, including other women.

>> That said, the other factor, specific to Western education, is culture
>> shock. The openness of the West runs very contrary to what most of these
>> people ever dealt with
>
> Note that many, if not most, of those muslims had been born in the west
> and lived and studied their whole lives here. It shouldn't be as much a
> cultural shock to them.
>
True, but in such cases its usually the religious lie that they fall 
for, "The bad things you see wouldn't exist, if everyone followed these 
other, supposedly, perfect rules." Some people find that thinking very 
tempting, especially if you can manage to give them something they don't 
have, then isolate them from people who might, say.. point out the flaws 
in the logic.

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Patrick Elliott <kag### [at] gmailcom> wrote:
> They 
> are just not so violently enforced, but, never the less, when, say.. a 
> rape happens, the first thing trotted out is a long list of excuses 
> about what she wore, did, thought, where she was, what she did/didn't 
> say, etc. And, worse, juries fall for that crap, including other women.

Sure, some people will use those things as excuses. However, I wouldn't
say it's the point.

The fact is, the risk of being raped can be affected by one's behavior
in the exact same way as the risk being mugged can be. If, for example,
a certain part of the city is known for the amount of crime, and you just
carelessly walk there alone in nice expensive clothes, don't be surprised
if you get mugged with a higher probability than if you were walking in
a busy mall, for instance. The fact is, you *can* affect the risks with
your actions.

Asking women questions about what they were doing, what they were wearing,
and where they had been can give us valuable information about certain
patterns that could ostensibly increase the risk of being raped. If,
for example, 90% of women who are raped in a certain city have certain
characteristics and/or were in a certain part of the city, we can deduce
that there's something common to these cases.

Telling a woman "you can decrease the risk of being raped by doing this"
is not victim blaming. It's pragmatism. It's no different from saying
things like "you should lock your doors before leaving home".

-- 
                                                          - Warp

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On Mon, 23 Dec 2013 15:27:13 +0200, Orchid Win7 v1 <voi### [at] devnull> wrote:

>>> One of the things I look for is WHY is this guy evil?
>>
>> Don't ask that, because we all know but fear the answer.
>>
>> You see it in the daily political discussions. Everywhere they shout: We
>> must fight against "terrorism"!
>>
>> But nearly no-one ask: Why do young men get so despaired in their lives,
>> that they bomb themselves away? Why are they so disappointed about our
>> world, about their future in this world that they hope for salvation in
>> a promised heaven?
>
> This is something I've never figured out.
>
> It's apparently no secret that the Muslims want us dead. But I haven't  
> got the vaguest idea *why*.
>

Koran 9:5 says to kill all non Muslims, unless they repent and become  
Muslims.



-- 
-Nekar Xenos-

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Nekar Xenos <nek### [at] gmailcom> wrote:
> Koran 9:5 says to kill all non Muslims, unless they repent and become  
> Muslims.

There are quite many passages in the koran that can be used to justify
murder. For instance 5:33 says:

"The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His apostle
and strive to make mischief in the land is only this, that they should
be murdered or crucified or their hands and their feet should be cut
off on opposite sides or they should be imprisoned; this shall be as a
disgrace for them in this world, and in the hereafter they shall have
a grievous chastisement."

In 9:29:

"Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that
forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor
acknowledge the Religion of Truth, from among the People of the Book,
until they pay the Jizyah with willing submission, and feel themselves
subdued."

These and many other passages are affirmed by the ahadith. For example:

Sahih al-Bukhari 6924:
Muhammad said: "I have been ordered to fight the people till they say:
La ilaha illallah (none has the right to be worshipped but Allah), and
whoever said La ilaha illahllah, Allah will save his property and his
life from me."

Sahih Muslim 30:
Muhammad said: "I have been commanded to fight against people so long
as they do not declare that there is no god but Allah."

-- 
                                                          - Warp

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Warp <war### [at] tagpovrayorg> wrote:
> Nekar Xenos <nek### [at] gmailcom> wrote:
> > Koran 9:5 says to kill all non Muslims, unless they repent and become
> > Muslims.
>
> There are quite many passages in the koran that can be used to justify
> murder.
>
Maybe I am wrong, but, of the three religions based on the Bible (Jewish,
Christian, Muslim), only the Christian's book don't justify or allow the murder.

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On Sun, 29 Dec 2013 16:49:01 +0200, Fractracer <lg.### [at] gmailcom> wrote:

> Warp <war### [at] tagpovrayorg> wrote:
>> Nekar Xenos <nek### [at] gmailcom> wrote:
>> > Koran 9:5 says to kill all non Muslims, unless they repent and become
>> > Muslims.
>>
>> There are quite many passages in the koran that can be used to justify
>> murder.
>>
> Maybe I am wrong, but, of the three religions based on the Bible (Jewish,
> Christian, Muslim), only the Christian's book don't justify or allow the  
> murder.
>
>
Jewish: Thou shalt not kill. There is also scripture that says to be  
hospitable to strangers. The only killing is specifically in a war  
situations concerning specific cities/towns. They basically use the same  
as the Old Testament of the Bible and a few other oral traditions.

Christian: Goes even further than being hospitable with "Love thine  
enemies". Jesus was a Jew. Christianity started with the Jewish religion,  
but Jesus fulfilled the difficult to complete laws and set them free from  
the law and gave them grace. Men, women and different races are all  
considered equal.

Muslim: Kill non-Muslims. In the Koran there are a few similarities to the  
Bible, but the details contradict and differ from the Bible. They believe  
in Creation, Adam and Eve, the flood, Moses and they believe the Jesus was  
a Prophet that never died. They believe Mohammad to have been the final  
prophet. Women are considered to have half the brainpower of a man.

-- 
-Nekar Xenos-

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> Patrick Elliott <kag### [at] gmailcom> wrote:
>> They stated that the reality was not what the
>> polls reflected. That the polls showed the "official" stance, the one
>> the members where worried someone might find out they disagreed with,
>> which someone more hardline might call them on, and they would get in
>> major trouble over, if they where found out, but that the reality was
>> that almost no one they knew actually thought that way in reality.
>
> That, in itself, is a big problem with many muslim subcultures in the
> west (ie. the peer pressure that doesn't seem to be as strong as ever.)
>
> As politically incorrect as it is to say, the culture itself is to blame,
> and muslims will not get over that problem until it's changed.
>

It's not only muslims that suffer from this.  In many parts of the world 
where Christianity still has a strong hold on society, you will see 
similar attitudes from people.  Case in point: A recent US study found 
that 1 pregnant woman in 200 "thought" she was still a virgin.  The 
authors of the study hypothecized that it was probably due to a mix of 
lack of sexual education leading with unsafe sexual activites, and fear 
of reprisal if they answered the survey truthfully.

> Of course the problem is only aggravated by the western mentality that
> says to them: "Your culture and your religion are very valuable, you
> should keep them, embrace them and treasure them. It's your cultural
> heritage and it would be a great loss if it were to be muddied and mixed
> with the western culture."
>
> This sentiment is very naive because it only thinks about the positive
> things of the exotic culture, completely ignoring the negative things,
> pretending that those are not *really* part of the culture. However,
> no matter how we try to pretend that it's not part of their culture,
> the sad fact is that it is, and we are only encouraging them to keep
> it that way and not making a change for the better.

[Devil's advocate]
I seem to remember you posting about Kantele and its probable 
disparition in the near future.

While Islam is nowhere near extinction, so it's not a fair comparision, 
you can't lament the loss of traditional Finnish culture, while at the 
same time criticizing others who want to preserve their own.
[/Devil's advocate]



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