> Unless a "sweet" wine simply means one that is sweetER than the others?

Now that would just be silly to call a wine that is sweeter than others 
a "sweet wine". I wonder what they'll come up with next, "fast" cars for 
cars than are simply just faster than others, but are nothing like fast 
jets or spaceships.

> Well, if they already know who they want for the job, then I didn't
> stand a chance in the first place. :-P

The whole point is that you make it so you are the one they know they 
want for the job, then nobody else stands a chance :-)

> No. Because living in the best city in the country is more important to
> me than which soul-crushing, monotonous waste of my life I get paid for.
> :-P
>
> Life is all about priorities, after all...

What if there was a job that you actually enjoyed that required you to 
move outside of roundabout-city?

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On 21/09/2012 03:48 PM, scott wrote:
>> Unless a "sweet" wine simply means one that is sweetER than the others?
>
> Now that would just be silly to call a wine that is sweeter than others
> a "sweet wine". I wonder what they'll come up with next, "fast" cars for
> cars than are simply just faster than others, but are nothing like fast
> jets or spaceships.

...

>> Well, if they already know who they want for the job, then I didn't
>> stand a chance in the first place. :-P
>
> The whole point is that you make it so you are the one they know they
> want for the job, then nobody else stands a chance :-)

AFAIK, this is impossible.

>> No. Because living in the best city in the country is more important to
>> me than which soul-crushing, monotonous waste of my life I get paid for.
>> :-P
>>
>> Life is all about priorities, after all...
>
> What if there was a job that you actually enjoyed that required you to
> move outside of roundabout-city?

What's the point of having a job you actually enjoy if you have to be 
miserable the rest of the time?

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On 21/09/2012 4:49 PM, Orchid Win7 v1 wrote:
> What's the point of having a job you actually enjoy if you have to be
> miserable the rest of the time?

Move away from your mother, pay the rent, have somewhere you can take 
your next girl friend to, be as one with everyone else.
If you were promised an easy life then when you die kick St Peter or 
whoever in the goolies. He/she/it lied.
We all have to do things that we don't particularly like to survive.


-- 
Regards
     Stephen

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Orchid Win7 v1 wrote:
> On 21/09/2012 12:40 PM, scott wrote:
> >> But when somebody tells me "wine tastes sweet", when it clearly and
> >> obviously does not, and it's trivially easy to verify over and over
> >> again that it /actually/ tastes sharp, bitter and corrosive,
> >
> > Did you ever stop and think that not all wines are the same?
>
> Did you ever stop to think that I've tasted dozens of different wines
> over the course of my life? Sure, they didn't all taste the same. But
> I've yet to find a single one which could be described as "sweet". And
> when people sing lyrics like "kissing sweeter than wine", it makes it
> sound like sweetness is a very common property of many wines. This
> certainly does not appear to be the case at all.
>
It is entirely possible you are a "supertaster".

"In the case of the supertaster, it is difficult to imagine one being an
excellent wine connoisseur because most supertasters find red wine bitter and
thus, unenjoyable."
http://www.contempaesthetics.org/newvolume/pages/article.php?articleID=282

This raises the rather interesting possibility that even if you and I (for
example) experience exactly the same thing, we may be completely at odds in our
descriptions of it. And yet, our opposing descriptions may both be entirely
correct, because our /perceptions/ are objectively different.

What do you think of coffee?

P.S. I'm entirely with you on not accepting (unless or until your survival
requires it) the false dichotomy of choosing between living in a place that
sucks or working at a place that sucks.

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On 22/09/2012 02:25 AM, waggy wrote:
> It is entirely possible you are a "supertaster".

I once thought that. (Especially after hearing "John Lee Supertaster" by 
They Might Be Giants.) And then my dad pointed out that if I /was/ a 
supertaster, I couldn't possibly eat raw table sugar or drink neat 
vinegar - both things which I do from time to time.

> What do you think of coffee?

That it tastes diabolically awful?

> P.S. I'm entirely with you on not accepting (unless or until your survival
> requires it) the false dichotomy of choosing between living in a place that
> sucks or working at a place that sucks.

Indeed.

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On 9/20/2012 10:29, Jim Henderson wrote:
> Once I know what's happening after this gig, I'll decide whether I'm
> setting up a sole proprietorship or something similar myself.

Unless you've set something up already, you're already a sole proprietor. 
Your choice is sole proprietor, partnership, or corporation.

-- 
Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
   "They're the 1-800-#-GORILA of the telecom business."

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On 9/21/2012 5:40, Orchid Win7 v1 wrote:
> Did you ever stop to think that I've tasted dozens of different wines over
> the course of my life?

Wow! Dozens!?  ;-)

> find a single one which could be described as "sweet".

Muscato d'Oro.  Sauternes. Even Port.

 > And when people sing
> lyrics like "kissing sweeter than wine", it makes it sound like sweetness is
> a very common property of many wines.

That's a different kind of sweetness.

>> But those people *might* be able to put you in touch with the right
>> person who does know about computery stuff. That's how networking works.
>
> In my limited experience, this has not been the case.

So, because you're ignorant, you're going to ignore the advice of those who 
aren't? Is that what you're saying?

 > Most employees seem to
> have absolutely no idea whether their employer is hiring or not. Not even
> for the job that *they* do, never mind for an unrelated part of the operation.

That's not the point. Every employer is hiring if the right person comes along.

>> You don't need to know anyone in a position of power, you just need to
>> know other people who might have heard of a computery type job going.
>> The more people you talk to obviously the more chance of finding out
>> about a job that would be suitable.
>
> Well, I guess that's true enough. But these jobs are going to show up on a
> jobs site eventually /anyway/. Just "knowing" that they exist doesn't really
> help get you hired.

Yes. Yes it does. Just knowing they exist can get you considered before 
every hopeful with an internet connection sends in a resume.

> Because I don't want to have to travel too far to get to work?

So you move. Hell, I worked for a guy who had moved 43 times in his life, 
because he liked walking to work. We're sitting in the bar, he gets a phone 
call, and says "Great. The movers are done and I'm moved in." He didn't even 
bother showing up for the moving process any more. He just told the movers 
where he lived and where he moved to.

> But now I've found some better sites to look on,

Did you check Craigslist? Or did you just dismiss it because you'd actually 
have to type the name into the address bar to get there?

-- 
Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
   "They're the 1-800-#-GORILA of the telecom business."

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On 9/20/2012 0:37, Orchid Win7 v1 wrote:
> Currently I'm going with the latter approach.

But tailor your cover letter, especially if you're applying directly to the 
company. Point out each correspondence between your CV and their job 
advertisement.

-- 
Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
   "They're the 1-800-#-GORILA of the telecom business."

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On Fri, 21 Sep 2012 12:13:31 +0100, Orchid Win7 v1 wrote:

>> That makes sense.  Most companies don't write more than one job
>> description per position. :)
> 
> More irritating is the fact that most websites are just listing the
> exact same jobs. The job centre want me to look at lots of different
> websites, but if they all just list identical information, what's the
> point?

Because not all companies list all their jobs on all of the job sites.

>> Maybe that have technical non-IT jobs that would be a good (or even
>> better) fit for you.  You never know until you ask.
> 
> Well, like I said, I asked, and that's all the information that seemed
> to be forthcoming.

Maybe do a quick follow-up and just ask if she's seen/heard anything new 
that's not yet been posted that you should keep your eyes open for.

> Likewise, when somebody says that knowing people instantly makes every
> job search trivial... no, that is not my experience at all. And even
> though I hear such advice from people who, objectively, it seems ought
> to know quite a bit about it, it's still really hard to believe
> something that sounds so utterly /wrong/. (A bit like quantum theory,
> actually...)

Nobody said it makes job searches "trivial".  There's part of the 
problem, you oversimplify to the point of it being absurd.

It makes it *easier*.  But there's a right way to do it, and a wrong way, 
and it still depends a bit on luck.  But there's less luck involved when 
people know (a) what you're looking for, (b) where you're looking, and 
(c) that you're interested.  Isn't *that* logical?

> Perhaps the problem isn't "knowing people", but rather "knowing /the
> right/ people"? I mean, I certainly know a tiny handful of people. But I
> don't know anybody who actually works in computing. (Well, except
> Jayne.) Almost everyone I know wouldn't know the difference between a
> computer programmer, a network administrator and a data entry clerk.
> After all, they all "do computery stuff", don't they?

How about people in this very forum?  There certainly are a lot of people 
in here who are familiar with your abilities.

You're thinking solely in meatspace - you need to include cyberspace in 
your thinking.

But also, for example, when talking to people in your dance classes, you 
can be more specific.  If they come back with a data entry job, just 
thank them for passing it along; if they ask you about it, tell them you 
looked at it and it seemed a little too entry-level for your skills, but 
you appreciated their thinking that it might be something you were 
interested in.

Because at least at that point, when they see something that includes 
"computery stuff" in the description, they're associating your name with 
it.  You can then work to refine that definition on their part with words 
like "programming", "systems administration", and other similar terms.

>>> So perhaps you could /explain/ exactly how I can turn the fact that I
>>> know people into offers of employment. :-P
>>
>> It takes time, of course.  It takes a certain amount of luck, too.
> 
> I thought "luck" was just about the /only/ requirement for getting
> hired?

Absolutely not.  It takes making a good case, and a fair bit of hard 
work.  Most employers will be forgiving of people who aren't professional 
job seekers (and will tend to steer clear of those who are professional 
job seekers), because their expertise isn't in finding a job, it's in 
programming/systems admin/whatever.

> Well, that's true enough. But as I say, most people I know wouldn't have
> a clue what my ideal job looks like. And I've mentioned it enough, yet
> nobody is coming forward. Because, as I say, nobody knows anything that
> would help me.

You're a good writer.  Start by writing up what, to you, would be your 
dream job (and an actual job, not something described as a job where 
"they pay you to sit on your butt all day and surf the 'net rather than 
doing actual work" or "they pay me and don't care what I do" - it needs 
to be realistic).  Then distill it down into a sentence or two.

In short, start by writing your own job description for your ideal job.

>> It's the way most people find work.  That your very limited experience
>> doesn't match up to the reality doesn't mean that reality is wrong.
> 
> "Most people"? Damn. If that's actually true, wouldn't the entire
> recruitment industry be out of a job?

Certainly the recruitment industry isn't huge here.  There's a few 
places, but in my experience most US companies post their own jobs rather 
than going through a recruiter.  Remember the lens I'm looking through is 
mostly a US-centric one (for the most part).

But even still, I talk with/network with people in the UK fairly 
regularly.

>> That fact is actually irrelevant.  You might need to remind them where
>> you worked and what you did, but having worked with auditors myself,
>> people who make it EASY for them to do their jobs are rare and
>> memorable.
> 
> Really? Because, I would have imagined it's a bit like being in IT. When
> everything is working how it should, nobody even gives you a second
> though. When stuff stops working, they come hammering on your door
> demanding to know why you're not doing your job right. And once it's
> fixed, they forget about you again. [No, you will not get any thanks. It
> is of course your fault that it broke in the first place.]

Remember what I said about your experience being limited?  You worked for 
a sucky company that didn't give you a second thought.  That doesn't mean 
*all* employers give their IT staff short shrift.

Most companies that I've dealt with staff from actually treat their IT 
staff with respect.  Not all of them (I worked for one like the one you 
worked for, you'll recall), but most of them.

> There are a lot of things like that - stuff that nobody thinks about,
> until it goes wrong. I would imagine auditing is like that; you remember
> that company you had to audit which was a total nightmare, but you
> forget the millions of audits that went perfectly smoothly...

That's not my experience working with licensing auditors, as I 
explained.  The auditors remembered the good one because it was the 
exception.  The exceptions tend to be more memorable.

>> The second time they came back, they remembered the previous experience
>> and, knowing they were going to be dealing with me again, they planned
>> accordingly.  They got done in half a day what normally took them 2-3
>> days at least because I was prepared and available.
> 
> ...then again, I am not an auditor...

That doesn't mean you couldn't be for the right kind of auditing (like 
license auditing, for example).

> That's like saying "if you drove around London a lot, you'd find ways to
> make it easy". Which is nonsense of course, because /everybody/ finds it
> a nightmare to drive anywhere in London. Now of course, Oxford isn't
> London. But that doesn't mean that the same cannot be true.

There's a difference between finding it a figurative nightmare to get 
around and finding an optimal way to get around London.  I know people 
who live in London and who work in London, and they've optimized their 
routes and times.  Hell, driving to Provo, UT is something of a pain in 
the butt at the wrong time of the day.  For me, the commute is typically 
45 minutes, but I've had times where it's taken twice that if I leave at 
the wrong time.

But the route I use is fairly optimal (and the only choice, honestly), 
and most of the time it's not too bad.

>> You might try casting a wider net.
> 
> Maybe in 9 months' time when I still don't have a job, I'll consider it.

I don't know that I'd wait that long, personally - you don't have 9 
months' salary banked up (guessing), so that means you're completely out 
of money before casting a wider net.

Again, if that ideal job is out there now but it's not in the locale 
you're looking at right now, it may well be gone in 9 months (probably 
will be, actually), and you'd have missed it.  Cast the wider net earlier 
to find those jobs.

> Currently I'm only considering jobs that I'd actually want to have.

No, because you're not considering jobs you'd actually want to have if 
they were outside of a 50 mile radius (or whatever).  That's not the same 
as considering a job that you'd actually want to have that was based in 
London but only required you be there once a month.

> Because let's face it, do I really want to spend the next ten years
> doing an unpleasant job just because I was a bit impatient?

Turn that question around:  Do you really want to spend the next 10 years 
turning down job offers because no job was good enough for you to accept 
an offer when made because it wasn't the perfect fit?

>> Do some research on companies in London as well, and rather than going
>> through recruiting websites where you don't know the company, go to the
>> company website and look at their careers page.
> 
> Well, that's a valid strategy. [Although there's no particular reason to
> focus on companies based on one specific city. Rather, just look for
> companies that might have a base nearby.] It does have the advantage
> that you don't have to deal with worthless agencies.

Right. :)

> OTOH, it has the disadvantage that you can't connect with small local
> companies this way. But more pressingly, there are, like, seventy
> billion companies in this country. How the hell do you figure out which
> ones might be hiring in a nearby area?

You can, but you have to dig a little deeper to find the small local 
companies.

>> For example, try bt.co.uk.  Bottom of the page, "Careers".  Follow the
>> links to the open positions.
>>
>> Then go to LinkedIn and look there for job postings.  Or to see if
>> there's anyone in your network who's at BT (or who knows someone at
>> BT).
> 
> I wouldn't work for BT if you paid me. They are an extremely bad
> employer. But the point stands.

That's an example of how to do this sort of search.  I don't care if it's 
the BT website you look at or Google or Microsoft or whomever.  The point 
is that most companies have a careers page and list jobs on them.

> I'm not sure why you'd look in LinkedIn for jobs though. If the company
> has any, it'll be on their website. LinkedIn just has a badly formatted
> copy of the same information. What does that add to the proposition?

The one job I interviewed for in Oregon was a job I wouldn't have seen if 
I hadn't looked on LinkedIn.  LinkedIn has visibility, and employers are 
seeing that, so while the job may be posted on their website as well, I 
wouldn't have ever thought to look at that company's website (didn't even 
know the existed, honestly) unless I'd seen the job posting on LinkedIn.

But you need to also update your profile with relevant skills and the 
name of your previous employer.  They have algorithms that use that 
information to suggest jobs you might be interested in.  My experience 
has been that they tend to be more geographically diverse than I'd like 
(for example, I get suggestions for companies in Tennessee and Kentucky, 
both places I wouldn't want to move to for various reasons), but those 
postings give me ideas for job titles to look for that I might not have 
otherwise considered.

Jim

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On Sun, 23 Sep 2012 14:45:31 -0700, Darren New wrote:

>> find a single one which could be described as "sweet".
> 
> Muscato d'Oro.  Sauternes. Even Port.

Indeed, port or most dessert wines come to mind as sweet wines.  Of 
course it also helps to know that in wine tasting "sweet" generally means 
lower alcohol content as well - the sugars aren't converted to alcohol, 
so they can also tend to be a little more syrupy as well.

Jim

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