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On 25/08/2012 08:18 AM, Warp wrote:
> They might well end up hiring someone who has programmed more in PHP (or
> at least claims to be) but who's not very good at it.
This is what I hate about IT jobs in particular.
If I wanted to hire a carpenter to build me a decorative oak chest, I
might grab a bunch of carpenters and ask each of them if they've ever
built decorative furniture before, or perhaps whether they've ever built
a chest before.
If an IT manager did it, he would grab a bunch of carpenters and say
"have you ever built anything out of oak before?"
One guy might be a master carpenter who's spent 30 years building
high-end decorative furniture from just about every wood you can name,
BUT NOT OAK. Another guy might be some rookie who barely knows what he's
doing, has only ever put up shelves or fitted window frames, knows
NOTHING about making furniture, never mind DECORATIVE furniture
(slapping some sheets of wood together is completely different to
curving a beautiful masterpiece), but the guy DID once nail some sheets
of oak together.
Obviously, I would hire the first guy, because he has the skills that
matter. But the IT manager? He's a ****ing moron, so he would hire the
second guy. Just because the second guy has some superficial attribute
which is nearly completely unimportant.
Likewise, when an IT manager wants to hire a C# programmer, the first
thing they do is throw away all the CVs that don't say C# on them somewhere.
Now, to be fair, there are people who go to college or whatever, learn
Java, do the minimum amount of work to get their shiny qualification,
and then STOP LEARNING. They then spend the next 20 years writing Java
from 9 to 5. And when they go home, they stop thinking about
programming. They never make any attempt to learn anything new. And if,
for example, Java were to suddenly vanish, these people would have to
spend years painfully "retraining" (by which I mean learning to program
from scratch all over again).
You do NOT want to hire one of these people for a C# role. And by
filtering out CVs that don't say C# on them, you achieve that.
But then you come to somebody like me. My CV has, like, a dozen
programming languages on it. But it doesn't say C#. And, indeed, I have
never written any C# at all. But give me a few months, and I could
/learn/ it. Quite easily, I imagine. I don't know C#, but I have
something vastly more important to offer: I'm a skilled programmer. Not
some drone who learned to copy the examples from a lecture handout with
a few minor tweaks.
But, because my CV does not say C# on it, I would never even be
/interviewed/ for such a job. Which sucks, frankly.
Having just said all that, the interview I went to on Wednesday was
refreshing in that the interviewers had actually studied my CV, and it
was perfectly clear to them that I had the technical aptitude for what
they wanted. They never once questioned my technical skills. Their only
questions were about other things - how well I would work in a team, etc.
The interview went really well; I was able to tell them all about
LogicBox, and in a handful of sentences make them understand what it
does and why that's interesting. I think I impressed them with my
descriptive skills.
And yet... I still don't have a job. And from the postdate on the
letter, it took only an hour or two for them to decide. Apparently I was
that bad. (The letter says something about it being a "difficult
decision" due to the "extremely high calibre of the applicants". But
they probably say that to everybody.)
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On 24/08/2012 5:29 PM, Orchid Win7 v1 wrote:
>
> I just got a letter today.
>
> Apparently I am not good enough. (!)
>
> At this point, I'm stunned. I seriously can't imagine what more I could
> have done...
>
> Oh well, I guess I'm back to being bereft of hope.
I commiserate but that is life. It is their loss as well.
The thing to do is not to brood about it and go for the next one.
> And yet... I still don't have a job. And from the postdate on the
> letter, it took only an hour or two for them to decide. Apparently I
> was that bad.
No, no, no. They just thought that someone else fitted better, that is all.
> (The letter says something about it being a "difficult
> decision" due to the "extremely high calibre of the applicants". But
> they probably say that to everybody.)
No, not true. Although it is a polite lie it is not always the case.
You came away from the interview feeling that you were in the running so
you probably were. It is just unfortunate (for you) that someone else
got the job. It may have been something trivial such as he lived two
miles away.
When I was working at Motorola my boss told me that he wasn't going to
hire someone because he had a copy of the daily mail in his pocket. Work
that one out. o_O
Anyway don't despair and keep trying.
--
Regards
Stephen
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On 25/08/2012 10:25 AM, Stephen wrote:
> When I was working at Motorola my boss told me that he wasn't going to
> hire someone because he had a copy of the daily mail in his pocket. Work
> that one out. o_O
Personally, the story I like is this one:
The hiring manager goes over to the pile of CVs, grabs half of it,
and chucks it in the bin. "Well, the LAST thing this company needs is
unlucky people!"
Debate among yourselves which half was the "lucky" half. :-P
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>
> Likewise, when an IT manager wants to hire a C# programmer, the first
> thing they do is throw away all the CVs that don't say C# on them
> somewhere.
>
No. Having had to do some serious recruiting before, I can tell you
that this is not the case. The IT manager will know that someone who
has a lot of C, C++ or Java experience will be able to pick up on C#
rather quickly. The HR person who receives all the CVs and doesn't know
the difference between C#, CICS/IMS, and TCP/IP apart from the fact that
"they're both buzzwords the IT folks use" is the one who will only send
the ones that have "C#" in them to the IT manager.
My girlfriend in the late 90s was that HR person. She had to review
hundreds of CVs every week for the various Y2K projects her employer was
driving, and she would come home at night with dozens CVs that she would
put in different piles after going through them for 3-4 seconds each.
"Blah blah blah DB/2 blah blah Oracle ... ok this one goes in the DBA
pile", "Blah blah pc support blah blah linux blah blah Solaris blah ...
This one's for the Unix pile", etc...
I once joked to her that I would pirnt my CV under an assumed named and
would love to see in which pile i ended up.
--
/*Francois Labreque*/#local a=x+y;#local b=x+a;#local c=a+b;#macro P(F//
/* flabreque */L)polygon{5,F,F+z,L+z,L,F pigment{rgb 9}}#end union
/* @ */{P(0,a)P(a,b)P(b,c)P(2*a,2*b)P(2*b,b+c)P(b+c,<2,3>)
/* gmail.com */}camera{orthographic location<6,1.25,-6>look_at a }
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On Sat, 25 Aug 2012 09:35:00 +0100, Orchid Win7 v1 wrote:
> Obviously, I would hire the first guy, because he has the skills that
> matter. But the IT manager? He's a ****ing moron, so he would hire the
> second guy. Just because the second guy has some superficial attribute
> which is nearly completely unimportant.
It's not really unimportant when hiring for a programming position,
though - if there's existing code that needs to be maintained, you would
want someone who knows the language it was written in.
Jim
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To continue the story a bit, even the "Thanks, but no thanks" -letter
isn't always the end of the story.
I received such letter ~10 years ago myself. Couple of weeks after that
I received a phone call - a lady called me asking me "Even though we
already sent you this letter, would you still be intrested to come to
interview?". That lady appeared to be my future boss, since that
interview got me the job as IT-assistant, starting 16.10.2002. ~3 years
after that my title was changed to IT-specialist and at 2007 I got
asked, if I'd like a transfer to the headquarters of the firm.
In october we'll have a party, since then I've worked 10 years for the firm.
Don't count on it, but stay aware that anything can happen. Be
open-minded for the situations that come up, it helps a lot.
-Aero
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>> Obviously, I would hire the first guy, because he has the skills that
>> matter. But the IT manager? He's a ****ing moron, so he would hire the
>> second guy. Just because the second guy has some superficial attribute
>> which is nearly completely unimportant.
>
> It's not really unimportant when hiring for a programming position,
> though - if there's existing code that needs to be maintained, you would
> want someone who knows the language it was written in.
If you need something done in a real hurry, then having somebody who can
hit the ground running can be very important. But most of the time, what
you want is somebody who can be trained to do a job well. An aptitude
for learning and a willingness to do so ought to be a higher priority
than merely having some of the relevant knowledge already.
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On 8/24/2012 9:29, Orchid Win7 v1 wrote:
> At this point, I'm stunned. I seriously can't imagine what more I could have
> done...
Remember, it's entirely possible *their* situation changed. They might not
need your skills or have the money at this point.
--
Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
"Oh no! We're out of code juice!"
"Don't panic. There's beans and filters
in the cabinet."
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On 8/24/2012 14:41, Jim Henderson wrote:
> So in my case (and as yours) - it's their loss.
An astute observation.
Or maybe the boss' nephew just lost his job and asked to cut to the front of
the line.
--
Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
"Oh no! We're out of code juice!"
"Don't panic. There's beans and filters
in the cabinet."
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On Sat, 25 Aug 2012 20:11:17 -0700, Darren New wrote:
> On 8/24/2012 14:41, Jim Henderson wrote:
>> So in my case (and as yours) - it's their loss.
>
> An astute observation.
>
> Or maybe the boss' nephew just lost his job and asked to cut to the
> front of the line.
I know that didn't happen in my case - they called a former coworker
(who'd already been eliminated in an earlier round), talked to him for an
extra 30 minutes, told him again that he was not up for consideration,
and then closed the position without filling it.
But that certainly could be the case in Andy's situation.
Jim
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