On 8/4/2012 15:39, Eero Ahonen wrote:
> it *just* means they liked someone more than you.

Or that they hired nobody at all, either because the job shouldn't have been 
advertised in the first place, or because they're too picky anyway.

-- 
Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
   "Oh no! We're out of code juice!"
   "Don't panic. There's beans and filters
    in the cabinet."

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On Sat, 04 Aug 2012 18:57:27 -0400, waggy wrote:

> clipka wrote:
>> Am 05.08.2012 00:07, schrieb Jim Henderson:
>> > On Sat, 04 Aug 2012 22:53:36 +0100, Orchid Win7 v1 wrote:
>> >
>> >>>>> Congratulations, you just discovered another soft skill of yours:
>> >>>>> Honesty and trustworthiness.
>> ...
>> >>>> +1 - and there are employers who consider that highly valuable.
>> >>
>> >> There are employers who DON'T highly v-
>> >
>> > Sure.  Do you really want to work for someone who doesn't value those
>> > traits?
>>
>> Word!
> 
> Doesn't that depend on how much they're paying and how desperate you
> are?

Personally, I don't think so.  But I've never been so desperate as to 
have to compromise my principles for pay.

> Consider the financial services industry.  They appear to value, very,
> very highly, those who can think up new and creative ways to defraud
> people.

I don't think I could work in that industry at all because of that - I 
wouldn't even consider looking at it as a career option because it's an 
industry that's all about greed, and I don't see greed as a virtue.

Jim

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On Sat, 04 Aug 2012 16:03:29 -0700, Darren New wrote:

> On 8/4/2012 15:39, Eero Ahonen wrote:
>> it *just* means they liked someone more than you.
> 
> Or that they hired nobody at all, either because the job shouldn't have
> been advertised in the first place, or because they're too picky anyway.

I had that experience once recently.  Flew to Portland for an in-person 
interview, and they ended up saying I clearly had the skills, but not the 
"passion for their company or product" (I think that's how they put it).  
<shrug>  Their loss, I'd have done a damned good job for them.  They 
ended up calling a former coworker back and after 30 minutes talking to 
him, decided (a second time) that he wasn't right for the job, and they 
opted to not fill it rather than fill it with someone who had all the 
skills they were looking for but not the 'enthusiasm'.

I guess I didn't jump up and down enough and say "oh my gawd, you have 
the best products EVAH!!!!!" - because I felt I was pretty enthusiastic.

But I was so much in shock when they said they were terminating the 
process before I talked to their CEO (a meeting that, if it had happened, 
would have had me missing the flight out that they had booked for me - 
which makes me wonder how serious they actually were or if they were 
looking for free consulting) that I didn't ask any intelligent questions.

Maybe they expected me to fight for it.  I thought it had gone pretty 
well.

Jim

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Jim Henderson  wrote:
> On Sat, 04 Aug 2012 18:57:27 -0400, waggy wrote:
> > Doesn't that depend on how much they're paying and how desperate you
> > are?
>
> Personally, I don't think so.  But I've never been so desperate as to
> have to compromise my principles for pay.
>
I hope you never are.

Although being just shy of living on the streets did help me figure out exactly
what my principles are, before selling a few.

> > Consider the financial services industry.  They appear to value, very,
> > very highly, those who can think up new and creative ways to defraud
> > people.
>
> I don't think I could work in that industry at all because of that - I
> wouldn't even consider looking at it as a career option because it's an
> industry that's all about greed, and I don't see greed as a virtue.
>
Stay away from the US health care industry, too.  "Pay us money or you and your
loved ones will suffer and die needlessly," is pretty much the definition of
extortion.

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On 05/08/2012 5:05 AM, Jim Henderson wrote:
>> Doesn't that depend on how much they're paying and how desperate you
>> >are?
> Personally, I don't think so.  But I've never been so desperate as to
> have to compromise my principles for pay.
>

Lucky you.

-- 
Regards
     Stephen

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On 04/08/2012 10:37 PM, andrel wrote:
> - do not have a problem posting about internal issues in your company

I do not believe that this is a plus point for employers. ;-)

-- 
Regards
     Stephen

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Le 05/08/2012 06:08, Jim Henderson nous fit lire :
>  I clearly had the skills, but not the 
> "passion for their company or product" 

You were expected to work double time for free. You are a picky a*****e
to have ask a salary.

A glass of water and the opportunity of working for them should have
been enough to sustain you for the ten first years!

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Le_Forgeron <jgr### [at] freefr> wrote:
> You were expected to work double time for free. You are a picky a*****e
> to have ask a salary.

Technically speaking it's illegal here (and I'm sure in most civilized
countries) to ask an employee to work extra hours without pay, and it's
also quite illegal to fire them just because they refuse. Yet it happens
all the time here.

Finnish law protects employees from being fired at a whim, without a good
reason (monetary problems or employee misconduct are good reasons; the
refusal of an employee to work extra hours for free certainly isn't). Even
when the employer does have a good reason to fire the employee, the
employer must give a three-month notice (except in special circumstances).

Employers get around this tiny problem with a trick: Rather than employ
people indefinitely, they employ them a few months at a time, always
renovating the employment contract at the end of the previous one. This
way they can "soft-fire" someone by simply not renovating the contract.
This is *technically* legal (because they are not firing anybody), yet
achieves practically the same effect as firing someone at a whim.

Of course now the employers have leverage over the employees: If they refuse
to make extra hours without pay, then the employer might have no option but
to let him go... You know, difficult times, economic recession and all
that... (Never mind that they immediately hire someone else to fill the
vacancy. Someone who *is* willing to donate the extra hours.)

-- 
                                                          - Warp

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Le 05/08/2012 10:57, Warp nous fit lire :
> Le_Forgeron <jgr### [at] freefr> wrote:
>> You were expected to work double time for free. You are a picky a*****e
>> to have ask a salary.
> 
> Technically speaking it's illegal here (and I'm sure in most civilized
> countries) to ask an employee to work extra hours without pay, and it's
> also quite illegal to fire them just because they refuse. Yet it happens
> all the time here.
> 
> Finnish law protects employees from being fired at a whim, without a good
> reason (monetary problems or employee misconduct are good reasons; the
> refusal of an employee to work extra hours for free certainly isn't). Even
> when the employer does have a good reason to fire the employee, the
> employer must give a three-month notice (except in special circumstances).
> 

Nearly the same thing here (France).
Additional bonus: previous ruling from tribunal states that refusing
extra hours is ok if previously extra hours wasn't paid. So, at most,
you get a month of unpaid extra, then stick to the clock, if you have
the nuts to fight.

> Employers get around this tiny problem with a trick: Rather than employ
> people indefinitely, they employ them a few months at a time, always
> renovating the employment contract at the end of the previous one.

A difference here, they can make it twice in a row only. And there is a
10% bonus (of the whole sum for the contract since its beginning) at the
end if they do not offer the place.

> Of course now the employers have leverage over the employees: If they refuse
> to make extra hours without pay, then the employer might have no option but
> to let him go... You know, difficult times, economic recession and all
> that... (Never mind that they immediately hire someone else to fill the
> vacancy. Someone who *is* willing to donate the extra hours.)

Yep, the old trick of "someone will do it if you do not". Works only for
low-formation time job. If getting productive take 4 months (to know the
job and setting), they cannot play that trick. (they might enforce a
strong documentation, but strong documentation costs a lot)

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On 05/08/2012 09:57 AM, Warp wrote:
> Le_Forgeron<jgr### [at] freefr>  wrote:
>> You were expected to work double time for free. You are a picky a*****e
>> to have ask a salary.
>
> Technically speaking it's illegal here (and I'm sure in most civilized
> countries) to ask an employee to work extra hours without pay, and it's
> also quite illegal to fire them just because they refuse. Yet it happens
> all the time here.

My sister is an accountant. She's /paid/ to work from 9 to 5. And yet, 
it's not uncommon to hear that she's stayed in the office until 11pm, 
and then taken a laptop home and worked until 3am. (And then gone back 
to the office at 8am on 4 hours' sleep.)

Sure, /technically/ they're not allowed to make people do that. But when 
the entire office is "expected" to put in the hours, and everybody else 
/does/, what are you going to do? Guess who gets the big promotions, the 
bonuses, etc. Yeah, that's right - the people who work for free...

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