On Fri, 08 Jun 2012 23:24:24 +0100, Orchid Win7 v1 wrote:

>>> There is no magical "tool" which can correctly guess what is hidden
>>> behind a solid object.
>>
>> No, but if you have a picture that shows what's behind a solid object,
>> then you can in fact mask out the object.
> 
> Sure. That I can believe. Doing it from just one photo isn't so easy.

I never claimed it was done from one photo.  Apparently I wasn't clear on 
that point.

>> That's not been my experience.  It is possible to seek out the
>> important facts before making a decision.
>>
>> Business intelligence systems do exactly that, in fact.
> 
> Doesn't BI involve paying vast sums of money to /collect/ the necessary
> information?

Not always (in my experience, not often).

BI involves collecting sales data and information about purchases in a 
lot of cases.  That's data that retail establishments and sales forces 
have as a result of actually selling stuff.

>>> Statements like this make me wonder where this vast endless source of
>>> "easy" counter-examples is... It's as if the entire world knows
>>> something that I don't.
>>
>> How to properly use google?<scnr>
> 
> You laugh, but this is actually non-trivial.

Not in my experience.  But then again, when I was in high school selling 
software and computer books, I was often amazed when people would grab a 
book of the shelf and just flip through it to find what they were looking 
for, rather than looking in the index or TOC first.

I always would start doing word association on the topic and go straight 
to the index.

>> Well, there's also the question of your unwillingness to go where the
>> work is
> 
> I live in a city with a population of 200,000 people, and an
> unemployment rate well below the national average. /Clearly/ there are
> jobs here. I just need to find them.

You've also stated (in the past, maybe it's changed) that you hate living 
there except that it's logically laid out and you can find stuff easily.

But yeah, there are probably jobs there, just perhaps not in the fields 
you're interested in.

When you start filtering by too many criteria, you end up with no 
options.  The logical thing to do when that happens is to relax some of 
the criteria, such as where you're willing to look or what you're willing 
to take as a job.

>> or your unwillingness to believe that anyone on the planet who works a
>> "normal" job makes enough to live on.
> 
> Uh, when did I say that?

It's been a couple of years probably, when you and I were talking about 
it being good for you to move out of your mum's place.  You asserted that 
it simply isn't possible for anyone to make enough money to buy a house 
or rent a flat, regardless of all evidence to the contrary.

>> Heck, I was laid off last May.  I didn't work again until October, and
>> it's been contract work ever since.  A couple of really tight months
>> financially, but we haven't lost the house and are still paying all the
>> bills.
> 
> Then clearly you are a far better person than I am.

I had a reasonable severance package, and my contract rate is decent - 
not outstanding, but decent.  There are some things we're not willing to 
give up, like eating out fairly regularly (which is expensive).

> One time my sister got laid off. 5 days later, she was on the phone
> complaining that of the 3 written job offers she had received from the 5
> interviews she attended, she couldn't decide which one sounded the
> nicest.

I had hoped for a situation like that.  It didn't happen.  I actually had 
an interview the week after the layoff, but I was so badly out of 
practice that I blew it by starting a conversation about pay and 
benefits.  That comes when an offer is made, not at the start of the 
conversation.

>>>> Oooh, he's got teeth, this one does. ;)  That's a fair question.
>>>
>>> Back atcha. ;-)
>>
>> It always makes me smile when you take a stand on something.  Even when
>> the stand isn't necessarily logical in my view.  You have changed in
>> that regard, and it's a good change.  :)
> 
> It's good to be righteous. It's not so good when you're actually wrong.
> :-/

It's good practice.  The stakes ultimately are pretty low here, so it's a 
largely safe environment to try stuff out and see what works and what 
doesn't.

"Practice makes perfect" and all that.

>>> So there's a lot of people /on/ the site.
>>
>> And it stands to reason if it were a waste of time, people wouldn't
>> spend time on the site, would they?  (The point of LinkedIn isn't to
>> waste time, it's to build a professional network.  Facebook, OTOH, is
>> essentially there for people to waste time on so they can be the
>> 'product' sold to advertisers - the two aren't really equivalent).
> 
> Yeah, I'm really not seeing how Facebook is still in business. It must
> cost /millions/ to run all those servers. And yet, their idea of
> "targeted adverts" is about as precise as a blunderbuss. It just seems
> like some day somebody is going to figure out the emperor's magical
> invisible suite is actually non-existent...

It may well - I understand they use SSD storage exclusively (local 
company here in Utah called Fusion-IO provides the hardware, 
apparently).  It's all about advertising, apparently.  Dunno how they 
manage it with ad blockers and things like the fb purity, but I figure 
that's not my problem.  If it goes away, I likely won't miss it.

>>> For example, how do you know that "millions" have found it useful?
>>> Not, say, "thousands"? The number of people on the site is not
>>> necessarily the number who have actually found it beneficial.
>>
>> It stands to reason that if it weren't beneficial, people would stop
>> using it.  After all, you didn't find it beneficial, and you stopped
>> using it.  That's actually a perfectly natural reaction.
>>
>> So are you assuming you're the only one who stopped using it because
>> you didn't find it beneficial?
> 
> We'd need to see numbers for how many people signed up, and how many
> people subsequently left.

Perhaps.

> My profile is still live on the system. It looks like I'm still a
> Linked-In user. And yet, I haven't used it in 3 years. So don't use /my/
> presence as an indicator of usefulness.

Well, you also only have 7 connections, IIRC.  One of the useful things 
to do, though, is to have someone you know introduce you to someone they 
know.  That's how I ended up with an interview in Portland - a colleague 
of mine in Florida knows the HR person at the company I applied to, and 
he introduced me.  Within 2 weeks, I had an in-person interview.  Sadly, 
they didn't feel that what they wanted out of my presentation was 
provided by what I presented to them, and they were looking for a 100% 
match.  They even said I was very well qualified, but that I "didn't 
follow the instructions given" and "didn't show an appropriate amount of 
enthusiasm and investment in the company".  The former I fault myself 
for, for assuming I understood their instructions (and not insisting 
earlier in the process of being told what I should be prepared to present 
on); the latter, I fault them for, because corporate enthusiasm is 
something that can be taught, and to reject a candidate because they 
weren't bouncing off the walls about your product/service even though 
they're highly qualified in the field is just silly.

> How many of the other profiles are ghosts? I guess that's the opportune
> question...
> 
> Regarding Facebook: How many of those profiles are for somebody's cat?
> ;-)

Far, far too many.  I've got a friend on Facebook who has a page for her 
African Grey parrot and for her dog.  I think her cat also has one, now I 
think about it.

Jim

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On 09/06/2012 12:57 AM, Jim Henderson wrote:
> That's what I remembered hearing - know offhand when they're airing?

'Fraid not.

-- 
Regards
     Stephen

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>>> How to properly use google?<scnr>
>>
>> You laugh, but this is actually non-trivial.
>
> Not in my experience.

The double-negatives make this ambiguous.

> But then again, when I was in high school selling
> software and computer books, I was often amazed when people would grab a
> book of the shelf and just flip through it to find what they were looking
> for, rather than looking in the index or TOC first.

To be fair, depending on what you're looking for, the TOC may not be 
that helpful. The index usually works though. It depends how badly put 
together the book is.

>> I live in a city with a population of 200,000 people, and an
>> unemployment rate well below the national average. /Clearly/ there are
>> jobs here. I just need to find them.
>
> You've also stated (in the past, maybe it's changed) that you hate living
> there except that it's logically laid out and you can find stuff easily.

I don't hate living here, it's my favourite place. I hate living WITH MY 
MUM, that's for sure. ;-)

> But yeah, there are probably jobs there, just perhaps not in the fields
> you're interested in.

Perhaps. I very much doubt anyone here wants computer programmers. But 
the guy who looks after the computers? Surely any company that has a lot 
of computers will want one of those. (Doesn't mean they need a new one 
though...)

> When you start filtering by too many criteria, you end up with no
> options.  The logical thing to do when that happens is to relax some of
> the criteria, such as where you're willing to look or what you're willing
> to take as a job.

Sure. And if a job was in, say, Northampton, that would be fine. 
Anything that's within a reasonable commuting distance of where I live.

>>> or your unwillingness to believe that anyone on the planet who works a
>>> "normal" job makes enough to live on.
>>
>> Uh, when did I say that?
>
> It's been a couple of years probably, when you and I were talking about
> it being good for you to move out of your mum's place.  You asserted that
> it simply isn't possible for anyone to make enough money to buy a house
> or rent a flat, regardless of all evidence to the contrary.

Interesting...

>> It's good to be righteous. It's not so good when you're actually wrong.
>> :-/
>
> It's good practice.  The stakes ultimately are pretty low here, so it's a
> largely safe environment to try stuff out and see what works and what
> doesn't.
>
> "Practice makes perfect" and all that.

Try "practice makes permanent" and you'll be nearer the mark. ;-)

And hey, I've actually /met/ a tiny few of the people on here, so... 
(Damn, if only I could remember their names!)

>> Yeah, I'm really not seeing how Facebook is still in business. It must
>> cost /millions/ to run all those servers. And yet, their idea of
>> "targeted adverts" is about as precise as a blunderbuss. It just seems
>> like some day somebody is going to figure out the emperor's magical
>> invisible suite is actually non-existent...
>
> It may well - I understand they use SSD storage exclusively (local
> company here in Utah called Fusion-IO provides the hardware,
> apparently).  It's all about advertising, apparently.  Dunno how they
> manage it with ad blockers and things like the fb purity, but I figure
> that's not my problem.  If it goes away, I likely won't miss it.

It seems to be classic Internet bubble type stuff. Everybody is really 
excited about how much money Facebook is going to start making ANY DAY 
NOW... and yet, where's the money?

>> My profile is still live on the system. It looks like I'm still a
>> Linked-In user. And yet, I haven't used it in 3 years. So don't use /my/
>> presence as an indicator of usefulness.
>
> Well, you also only have 7 connections, IIRC.  One of the useful things
> to do, though, is to have someone you know introduce you to someone they
> know.  That's how I ended up with an interview in Portland - a colleague
> of mine in Florida knows the HR person at the company I applied to, and
> he introduced me.  Within 2 weeks, I had an in-person interview.

The idea that somebody actually knows the guy who does the hiring just 
seems... really, really far-out. I mean, I suppose there must *be* a guy 
who does the hiring, and *somebody* must know that guy. But the chances 
of actually connecting with that guy seem vanishingly small. It would be 
like winning the lottery or something.

Actually, you know what? What /really/ sounds far-fetched to me is that 
somebody would know somebody who needs to make a hire, and that person 
would think that *I* am even worth mentioning. I have no skills useful 
in a workplace. I find it hard to imagine anybody wanting to hire me...

> the latter, I fault them for, because corporate enthusiasm is
> something that can be taught, and to reject a candidate because they
> weren't bouncing off the walls about your product/service even though
> they're highly qualified in the field is just silly.

Yeah, about that...

So in the interview, they always seem to ask you something along the 
lines of "what excites you about our company?" or "why did you choose 
us?" or something similar.

The desired response, apparently, is some eulogy about how this company 
is unparalleled in the industry and how the company's vision will 
transform my career or something like that.

Why did I pick this company? The honest truth is obviously "this is all 
I could find". I know that. The person interviewing me must, surely, 
know that too. (Unless they're a total moron.) And yet, if you say that, 
you're instantly removed from consideration. WTF?

I mean, if you were applying to work for *Google* or somebody, yes, you 
could legitimately claim to be actually *excited* about the prospect. 
But for any other company? It's a job. I need the money. End of story. 
It seems silly to have to pretend otherwise...

>> How many of the other profiles are ghosts? I guess that's the opportune
>> question...
>>
>> Regarding Facebook: How many of those profiles are for somebody's cat?
>> ;-)
>
> Far, far too many.  I've got a friend on Facebook who has a page for her
> African Grey parrot and for her dog.  I think her cat also has one, now I
> think about it.

I read an article somewhere about how investors hear that there are X 
million accounts on Facebook and they think "wow, if I could just be on 
Facebook, I could have X million customers!" Yet these same investors 
don't really understand what "be on Facebook" actually means. And most 
of those millions of profile are for people's cat, fictional TV 
characters, people's children who can't read or write yet, etc. (E.g., 
Jamie's son has a profile. He's 4 weeks old. His mum posts all the 
actual stuff...)

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On 09/06/2012 12:40 PM, Orchid Win7 v1 wrote:
> And hey, I've actually /met/ a tiny few of the people on here, so...
> (Damn, if only I could remember their names!)

So much for fame.
I obviously made a big impression. :-(

-- 
Regards
     Stephen

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Le 2012-06-08 06:18, Invisible a écrit :
> I don't know that there are any sites that do /exactly/ what Linked-In
> does. But there are plenty of sites that let you search humans for
> various reasons. (Exhibit A: Monster.)
>

Monster is nothing like LinkedIn.  Linked-In is much closer to Facebook 
than Monster.

In Linked-in, you are supposed to build a network of contacts (school 
buddies, coworkers, family, etc...), which then lets you get introduced 
to THEIR contacts, etc... Hopefully helping you on your quest to find a 
good job.  E.g.:  There's this guy in your dance classes that works in 
accounting at a big company.  You become a contact in LinkedIn. While 
taking a break, he mentions the sad state of their IT.  YOu say: "I 
betcha I could help improve things."  The next day, you ask him over 
LinkedIn to introduce you to his HR rep or IT manager.  you get 
introduced, you go on an interview, you may not get hired, but the HR 
person knows you exist, and when the time comes to hire an Haskell 
expert, she'll have one in her network already.

Just like Facebook or Myspace, LinkedIn lets post blog-like messages; 
you can make recommendations on books, seminars, speeches, and other 
people's work.  You can also participate in various forums on a variety 
of topics.

You can (and could back in 2007, when I joined! so it must have been 
there when you did too) also join trade groups, alumni groups, interest 
groups, etc...  All have mailing lists that will let you know of other 
group members' postings, forum discussions, etc...

> I've noticed, on multiple forums, that I seem to piss people off. I
> guess I'm just a bad human being. In the past, people used to just
> ignore me. Now people talk to me, but only to tell me that I'm an idiot.
> I'm not sure that's an improvement...

I don't think anyone here thinks you're an idiot. You do have a tendency 
to make broad assumptions, combined with hyperbole when discussing 
topics that you haven't researched properly.  People who know about 
those topics will then have a knee-jerk reaction and point out the 
errors of your ways.  What irks them is that you appear unwilling to 
learn from your mistakes and will continue to argue ad vitam aeternam 
why you think there's nothing wrong with your initial impression.

-- 
/*Francois Labreque*/#local a=x+y;#local b=x+a;#local c=a+b;#macro P(F//
/*    flabreque    */L)polygon{5,F,F+z,L+z,L,F pigment{rgb 9}}#end union
/*        @        */{P(0,a)P(a,b)P(b,c)P(2*a,2*b)P(2*b,b+c)P(b+c,<2,3>)
/*   gmail.com     */}camera{orthographic location<6,1.25,-6>look_at a }

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On 09/06/2012 03:11 PM, Francois Labreque wrote:
> Le 2012-06-08 06:18, Invisible a écrit :
>> I don't know that there are any sites that do /exactly/ what Linked-In
>> does. But there are plenty of sites that let you search humans for
>> various reasons. (Exhibit A: Monster.)
>>
>
> Monster is nothing like LinkedIn. Linked-In is much closer to Facebook
> than Monster.

Both LinkedIn and Monster let you search for humans for work-related 
purposes though. That was the comparison I was going for.

> In Linked-in, you are supposed to build a network of contacts (school
> buddies, coworkers, family, etc...), which then lets you get introduced
> to THEIR contacts, etc... Hopefully helping you on your quest to find a
> good job. E.g.: There's this guy in your dance classes that works in
> accounting at a big company. You become a contact in LinkedIn. While
> taking a break, he mentions the sad state of their IT. YOu say: "I
> betcha I could help improve things." The next day, you ask him over
> LinkedIn to introduce you to his HR rep or IT manager. you get
> introduced, you go on an interview, you may not get hired, but the HR
> person knows you exist, and when the time comes to hire an Haskell
> expert, she'll have one in her network already.

That's a great story. Pity I don't know anybody like that...

> Just like Facebook or Myspace, LinkedIn lets post blog-like messages;
> you can make recommendations on books, seminars, speeches, and other
> people's work. You can also participate in various forums on a variety
> of topics.
>
> You can (and could back in 2007, when I joined! so it must have been
> there when you did too) also join trade groups, alumni groups, interest
> groups, etc... All have mailing lists that will let you know of other
> group members' postings, forum discussions, etc...

1. I had no idea that any of this functionality existed.

2. I'm not really sure how you would use such functionality to do 
anything "useful". (Not that I'm saying you can't, I'm just saying I'm 
not sure how.)

>> I've noticed, on multiple forums, that I seem to piss people off. I
>> guess I'm just a bad human being. In the past, people used to just
>> ignore me. Now people talk to me, but only to tell me that I'm an idiot.
>> I'm not sure that's an improvement...
>
> I don't think anyone here thinks you're an idiot. You do have a tendency
> to make broad assumptions, combined with hyperbole when discussing
> topics that you haven't researched properly. People who know about those
> topics will then have a knee-jerk reaction and point out the errors of
> your ways. What irks them is that you appear unwilling to learn from
> your mistakes and will continue to argue ad vitam aeternam why you think
> there's nothing wrong with your initial impression.

Being mistaken is common enough. Failing to learn from your mistakes? I 
think that probably /does/ qualify somebody as an idiot.

Alternatively, somebody phrased it like this:

   "Every man is a damned fool for five minutes of every day. Wisdom 
resides in not exceeding this quota."

Post a reply to this message

On Sat, 09 Jun 2012 12:40:52 +0100, Orchid Win7 v1 wrote:

>>>> How to properly use google?<scnr>
>>>
>>> You laugh, but this is actually non-trivial.
>>
>> Not in my experience.
> 
> The double-negatives make this ambiguous.

I find it to be trivial.  Occasionally I have to do some word 
association, but it's rare that I have trouble finding stuff with the 
right selection of keywords.

One thing that helps tremendously is to just use keywords, not to write a 
novel as the question.

>> But then again, when I was in high school selling software and computer
>> books, I was often amazed when people would grab a book of the shelf
>> and just flip through it to find what they were looking for, rather
>> than looking in the index or TOC first.
> 
> To be fair, depending on what you're looking for, the TOC may not be
> that helpful. The index usually works though. It depends how badly put
> together the book is.

The TOC can provide a good high-level view, but I do tend to agree, which 
is why I always started with the index.

>>> I live in a city with a population of 200,000 people, and an
>>> unemployment rate well below the national average. /Clearly/ there are
>>> jobs here. I just need to find them.
>>
>> You've also stated (in the past, maybe it's changed) that you hate
>> living there except that it's logically laid out and you can find stuff
>> easily.
> 
> I don't hate living here, it's my favourite place. I hate living WITH MY
> MUM, that's for sure. ;-)

Your favourite place from a very limited selection, admittedly.  

>> But yeah, there are probably jobs there, just perhaps not in the fields
>> you're interested in.
> 
> Perhaps. I very much doubt anyone here wants computer programmers. But
> the guy who looks after the computers? Surely any company that has a lot
> of computers will want one of those. (Doesn't mean they need a new one
> though...)

Yes, but if there are largely small companies, they may typically hire 
some kid recently out of school (often times before they've been to uni) 
because they know the kid because he/she fixed their computer once.

>> When you start filtering by too many criteria, you end up with no
>> options.  The logical thing to do when that happens is to relax some of
>> the criteria, such as where you're willing to look or what you're
>> willing to take as a job.
> 
> Sure. And if a job was in, say, Northampton, that would be fine.
> Anything that's within a reasonable commuting distance of where I live.

What distance would you consider?

>>>> or your unwillingness to believe that anyone on the planet who works
>>>> a "normal" job makes enough to live on.
>>>
>>> Uh, when did I say that?
>>
>> It's been a couple of years probably, when you and I were talking about
>> it being good for you to move out of your mum's place.  You asserted
>> that it simply isn't possible for anyone to make enough money to buy a
>> house or rent a flat, regardless of all evidence to the contrary.
> 
> Interesting...

You don't recall that?  At around the same time, you were making 
assertions about the uselessness of car insurance IIRC.

>>> It's good to be righteous. It's not so good when you're actually
>>> wrong. :-/
>>
>> It's good practice.  The stakes ultimately are pretty low here, so it's
>> a largely safe environment to try stuff out and see what works and what
>> doesn't.
>>
>> "Practice makes perfect" and all that.
> 
> Try "practice makes permanent" and you'll be nearer the mark. ;-)

Of course, I was citing a common quote. ;)

> And hey, I've actually /met/ a tiny few of the people on here, so...
> (Damn, if only I could remember their names!)

Don't worry about remembering names - I never remember names myself, 
especially when it comes to seeing people out of context.  I went for 
sushi with my wife last week, and ended up seated at a table next to two 
software engineers I'd worked a contract with in January.  I said 'hi' as 
we sat down (they recognised me), and then we got to talking and I had to 
admit that I couldn't remember their names, but I did remember working 
with them.

>> It may well - I understand they use SSD storage exclusively (local
>> company here in Utah called Fusion-IO provides the hardware,
>> apparently).  It's all about advertising, apparently.  Dunno how they
>> manage it with ad blockers and things like the fb purity, but I figure
>> that's not my problem.  If it goes away, I likely won't miss it.
> 
> It seems to be classic Internet bubble type stuff. Everybody is really
> excited about how much money Facebook is going to start making ANY DAY
> NOW... and yet, where's the money?

Indeed, the IPO happened and the stock has been pretty much declining 
since.

>> Well, you also only have 7 connections, IIRC.  One of the useful things
>> to do, though, is to have someone you know introduce you to someone
>> they know.  That's how I ended up with an interview in Portland - a
>> colleague of mine in Florida knows the HR person at the company I
>> applied to, and he introduced me.  Within 2 weeks, I had an in-person
>> interview.
> 
> The idea that somebody actually knows the guy who does the hiring just
> seems... really, really far-out. I mean, I suppose there must *be* a guy
> who does the hiring, and *somebody* must know that guy. But the chances
> of actually connecting with that guy seem vanishingly small. It would be
> like winning the lottery or something.

When you only are networked to 7 people directly, the chances are pretty 
small.  When you are networked to 500+ people, the chances get 
significantly larger.  After all, people know their HR managers 
typically.  Bosses have people who report to them and those people know 
them.

> Actually, you know what? What /really/ sounds far-fetched to me is that
> somebody would know somebody who needs to make a hire, and that person
> would think that *I* am even worth mentioning. I have no skills useful
> in a workplace. I find it hard to imagine anybody wanting to hire me...

It's a question of scale.  And you don't be someone worth mentioning, you 
have to pursue it.  Most HR professionals say that they're not interested 
in hiring someone who doesn't show initiative.  You don't say to an HR 
person "if you see something that looks like a good fit, get in touch 
with me".

> So in the interview, they always seem to ask you something along the
> lines of "what excites you about our company?" or "why did you choose
> us?" or something similar.

Yep.  So you have to find something to be excited about - and there has 
to be something that interests you beyond the paycheck, or there's little 
reason for you to stay.  Hiring people is expensive, so they want to hire 
people who have a peripheral interest.

So in my case, the company in question has an administrative automation 
product (it's their primary product).  I've long had an interest in 
automating administrative tasks on systems, and their implementation is 
somewhat unique in how it approaches the problem of distributing 
automated tasks and performing system inventories.

So while the position was a "Certification program manager" position, I 
demonstrated interest in the company by (a) downloading and looking at 
the product, (b) downloading and looking at their training VM, and (c) 
being familiar with how the product works.

> Why did I pick this company? The honest truth is obviously "this is all
> I could find". I know that. The person interviewing me must, surely,
> know that too. (Unless they're a total moron.) And yet, if you say that,
> you're instantly removed from consideration. WTF?

m-/

Telling them "nobody else will hire me" makes them think "yeah, so there 
must be a reason for that so we'll just back away slowly".

You have to find something about what they do that piques your interest.

> I mean, if you were applying to work for *Google* or somebody, yes, you
> could legitimately claim to be actually *excited* about the prospect.
> But for any other company? It's a job. I need the money. End of story.
> It seems silly to have to pretend otherwise...

You don't have to pretend about it.

My first job out of college was working for a company that manufactured 
painting equipment.  I had worked there during the summers on the 
assembly line, and had considered getting a forklift license to work in 
the warehouse (assembly line work is very demanding work).

I left college for a job in their MIS department.  What excited me about 
the job?  Flexible hours, the ability to build new systems and to affect 
the bottom line indirectly.  I did my first large-scale project (only 
$30,000, but it was a full rewiring of the building for voice/network), 
and had a chance to learn from someone I came to respect how to make a 
business case so I could do the things I wanted to do.

It was an exciting job for me at that time - I worked with good people 
who were good at their jobs.

I left that job for one with a call centre here in Utah that handled 
company benefits administration.  What excited me about that job?  The 
ability to move out of my parents' basement and get out on my own, and 
the ability to work with a larger environment than the one I was (at that 
time) currently working in.  Opportunity to work with a multi-site 
company and to pick up additional skills, learn new things, and grow 
professionally.

That job ended up largely sucking because of management changes. <shrug>  
It happens.  Next job was working on the corporate network for a Fortune 
50 food & drug retail company.  More users, larger systems, more complex 
network, etc.  That job was a lot of fun.

After that, I changed career paths and became a technical instructor.  
The challenge of presenting to students and interacting in a classroom 
was a draw for me.  A chance to teach people how to properly implement a 
product I'd built up expertise in.

Loved the work, ultimately disliked the travel.  So I moved into product 
support, and then into community building and program management.  On the 
surface, what's exciting about program management?  Nothing in particular 
(I fell into that job because I was at risk of being laid off), but I 
ended up helping set direction for the training department.  Figuring out 
what customers needed in terms of training and then figuring out how to 
get it to them - that was fun.

Now I'm looking to move into product management.  Looks like I'll 
probably start out doing some writing or product testing or something 
along those lines, and then move into defining product specs and finding 
out what customers want from a product.

The point is that while yeah - it's a job and you need the money - there 
should be something about the job or the company that makes you /want/ to 
get up and go to work in the morning.

> I read an article somewhere about how investors hear that there are X
> million accounts on Facebook and they think "wow, if I could just be on
> Facebook, I could have X million customers!" Yet these same investors
> don't really understand what "be on Facebook" actually means. And most
> of those millions of profile are for people's cat, fictional TV
> characters, people's children who can't read or write yet, etc. (E.g.,
> Jamie's son has a profile. He's 4 weeks old. His mum posts all the
> actual stuff...)

Well, not "most of those millions", but yeah, a not insignificant number 
of them.

But at the same time, TV advertisers spend a fair bit of money on 
advertising on TV that is watched by 4-year-olds, birds, cats, and dogs.  
The TV folks figured out a way to count how many they're advertising to 
that matter, and that's the trick with something like Facebook (as an 
advertising engine).

Ads are primarily Google's "product" as well.

Jim

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On Sat, 09 Jun 2012 15:27:41 +0100, Orchid Win7 v1 wrote:

>> In Linked-in, you are supposed to build a network of contacts (school
>> buddies, coworkers, family, etc...), which then lets you get introduced
>> to THEIR contacts, etc... Hopefully helping you on your quest to find a
>> good job. E.g.: There's this guy in your dance classes that works in
>> accounting at a big company. You become a contact in LinkedIn. While
>> taking a break, he mentions the sad state of their IT. YOu say: "I
>> betcha I could help improve things." The next day, you ask him over
>> LinkedIn to introduce you to his HR rep or IT manager. you get
>> introduced, you go on an interview, you may not get hired, but the HR
>> person knows you exist, and when the time comes to hire an Haskell
>> expert, she'll have one in her network already.
> 
> That's a great story. Pity I don't know anybody like that...

You don't know that.

Just with the 4 contacts I have in the UK (with a quick filter - and I 
know there are more in the UK who for some reason aren't showing up as 
being there - ah, because there is a city filter as well), you're a step 
away from knowing one of the product release managers at Applied Card 
Technologies, someone who works at T-Systems, and the owner and CEO of 
b2lateral (which is a training/consultancy).

I also know someone who's the systems engineering team leader at City 
College in Brighton, people who work at both Cambridge and Oxford 
universities (including a research professor who's not on LinkedIn - he's 
worked very hard to keep a very small online footprint).

Spend some time looking at the companies represented in your broader 
network and see what looks like it might be moderately interesting.

Then see what positions those companies have posted on LinkedIn, and if 
you find something that looks interesting, ask the person you know there 
to introduce you to the person they know ho works there.

Jim

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>> That's a great story. Pity I don't know anybody like that...
>
> You don't know that.
>
> Just with the 4 contacts I have in the UK (with a quick filter - and I
> know there are more in the UK who for some reason aren't showing up as
> being there - ah, because there is a city filter as well), you're a step
> away from knowing one of the product release managers at Applied Card
> Technologies, someone who works at T-Systems, and the owner and CEO of
> b2lateral (which is a training/consultancy).
>
> I also know someone who's the systems engineering team leader at City
> College in Brighton, people who work at both Cambridge and Oxford
> universities (including a research professor who's not on LinkedIn - he's
> worked very hard to keep a very small online footprint).

That's impressive and everything, but... why would any of these people 
give a damn about me? I'm nobody.

(I'm also not sure what you mean by "one step away"...)

> Spend some time looking at the companies represented in your broader
> network and see what looks like it might be moderately interesting.
>
> Then see what positions those companies have posted on LinkedIn, and if
> you find something that looks interesting, ask the person you know there
> to introduce you to the person they know ho works there.

It's literally news to me that LinkedIn lets you do this. I didn't 
realise it /had/ jobs listings, or company data, or anything remotely 
like that...

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>>>>> How to properly use google?<scnr>
>>>>
>>>> You laugh, but this is actually non-trivial.
>>>
>>> Not in my experience.
>>
>> The double-negatives make this ambiguous.
>
> I find it to be trivial.

Wow. OK, that's impressive. Next time I can't find something, I'll know 
who to ask...

(Oh, wait, I can't do that. Warp will yell at me. :-P )

> One thing that helps tremendously is to just use keywords, not to write a
> novel as the question.

Well, sure. But you still gotta pick out the /right/ words. That's what 
makes them KEY words...

>> I don't hate living here, it's my favourite place. I hate living WITH MY
>> MUM, that's for sure. ;-)
>
> Your favourite place from a very limited selection, admittedly.

Like I said, everywhere else I've seen is really old and dilapidated...

>>> But yeah, there are probably jobs there, just perhaps not in the fields
>>> you're interested in.
>>
>> Perhaps. I very much doubt anyone here wants computer programmers. But
>> the guy who looks after the computers? Surely any company that has a lot
>> of computers will want one of those. (Doesn't mean they need a new one
>> though...)
>
> Yes, but if there are largely small companies, they may typically hire
> some kid recently out of school (often times before they've been to uni)
> because they know the kid because he/she fixed their computer once.

We've got Unisys, we've got the UK headquarters of the OU, we've got a 
brand new building for Network Rail. Actually I know somebody who works 
for them; she reckons that should be my next target...

>> Sure. And if a job was in, say, Northampton, that would be fine.
>> Anything that's within a reasonable commuting distance of where I live.
>
> What distance would you consider?

Well, commuting time isn't proportional to just /distance/, but I'd at 
least /look at/ anything within about 25 miles or so, I guess.

>> Interesting...
>
> You don't recall that?

Vaguely. I still don't get how anybody can /buy/ a house outright, but 
renting seems plausible, if you make a lot of money.

>> And hey, I've actually /met/ a tiny few of the people on here, so...
>> (Damn, if only I could remember their names!)
>
> Don't worry about remembering names - I never remember names myself,

Everywhere I go, I can never remember anybody's names, and yet they all 
seem to know exactly who I am. It's weird...

(Or maybe *I* am weird, which is why everybody knows me.)

>> It seems to be classic Internet bubble type stuff. Everybody is really
>> excited about how much money Facebook is going to start making ANY DAY
>> NOW... and yet, where's the money?
>
> Indeed, the IPO happened and the stock has been pretty much declining
> since.

Heh. Burn, baby, burn...

>> The idea that somebody actually knows the guy who does the hiring just
>> seems... really, really far-out.
>
> When you only are networked to 7 people directly, the chances are pretty
> small.  When you are networked to 500+ people, the chances get
> significantly larger.

Yeah, I suppose so.

>> Actually, you know what? What /really/ sounds far-fetched to me is that
>> somebody would know somebody who needs to make a hire, and that person
>> would think that *I* am even worth mentioning. I have no skills useful
>> in a workplace. I find it hard to imagine anybody wanting to hire me...
>
> It's a question of scale.  And you don't be someone worth mentioning, you
> have to pursue it.  Most HR professionals say that they're not interested
> in hiring someone who doesn't show initiative.  You don't say to an HR
> person "if you see something that looks like a good fit, get in touch
> with me".

I can't imagine any way of "showing initiative".

>> So in the interview, they always seem to ask you something along the
>> lines of "what excites you about our company?" or "why did you choose
>> us?" or something similar.
>
> Yep.  So you have to find something to be excited about - and there has
> to be something that interests you beyond the paycheck, or there's little
> reason for you to stay.  Hiring people is expensive, so they want to hire
> people who have a peripheral interest.

I have a hard time imagining somebody being interested in a company for 
any reason other than the money.

>> Why did I pick this company? The honest truth is obviously "this is all
>> I could find".
>
> m-/
>
> Telling them "nobody else will hire me" makes them think "yeah, so there
> must be a reason for that so we'll just back away slowly".

In my case, it's more like "I couldn't find anybody else to ask". It's 
not as if job openings grow on trees...

> You have to find something about what they do that piques your interest.

Sounds infeasible to me.

> You don't have to pretend about it.

Oh really?

> I left college for a job in their MIS department.  What excited me about
> the job?  Flexible hours, the ability to build new systems and to affect
> the bottom line indirectly.  I did my first large-scale project (only
> $30,000, but it was a full rewiring of the building for voice/network),
> and had a chance to learn from someone I came to respect how to make a
> business case so I could do the things I wanted to do.

> The point is that while yeah - it's a job and you need the money - there
> should be something about the job or the company that makes you /want/ to
> get up and go to work in the morning.

I'm astonished. I never thought I'd meet somebody who ACTUALLY GETS 
EXCITED about doing a job...

> Ads are primarily Google's "product" as well.

I've been wondering about that. I mean, it's no secret that Google is 
hugely successful. The secret is WHO THE HELL PAYS THEM MONEY?! They 
don't SELL anything!

(People say "they sell advertising", but have YOU ever seen any of these 
adverts that they purportedly sell?)

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