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On 10/29/2011 1:45, Warp wrote:
> Ten years ago Halloween was completely inexistent in Finland.
Doesn't Finland have a harvest celebration, tho? Like Thanksgiving and
Mid-Autumn Festival and stuff like that? That's really all Halloween is,
except some Christians went and dressed it up in evil icons because it was
the pagan version of the holiday.
If Finland does *not* have a harvest celebration, that'll make it the second
piece of evidence it would be too cold there for my tastes. ;-)
--
Darren New, San Diego CA, USA (PST)
People tell me I am the counter-example.
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Th Dutch situation is a bit more complex (or perhaps not). There are two
track and treat traditions here (children sing and get candy, no matter
how badly they sing or what they sing. (some things would not get past
an American censor)). One where I live on Sept 11th and one in the south
on Jan 6th. It is unclear what Haloween has to offer additionally.
Perhaps in areas where neither tradition is present. I haven't seen
anything in the shops, but that might just be because I wasn't in any
shop over the last few months,
Carnival is the time to dress up, at least in the south, so no need to
import a foreign tradition either.
I think it is celebrated by some younger adults as an excuse to have a
party and dress up. I don't see it become very popular in the near
future here. If it does, shops will start selling at least 2 or 3 months
in advance, they do for all other festivities like Eastern Sinterklaas
(dec 6th) and Christmas (although some people get angry if Christmas
things are in shops before dec 6th)
On 30-10-2011 20:27, Darren New wrote:
>> yeah, its pretty much not a "holy day" for anyone any more.
>
> You should disabuse yourself of that notion. Just because you don't get
> invited doesn't mean they don't celebrate their religious holidays.
I try to observe towel day and at least pay some attention to talk like
a pirate day, but they do not seem very popular. Probably because of no
merchandising push.
--
Thanks to Darren New, the over the counter example.
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On 31-10-2011 20:37, Darren New wrote:
> On 10/29/2011 1:45, Warp wrote:
>> Ten years ago Halloween was completely inexistent in Finland.
>
> Doesn't Finland have a harvest celebration, tho? Like Thanksgiving and
> Mid-Autumn Festival and stuff like that? That's really all Halloween is,
> except some Christians went and dressed it up in evil icons because it
> was the pagan version of the holiday.
>
> If Finland does *not* have a harvest celebration, that'll make it the
> second piece of evidence it would be too cold there for my tastes. ;-)
we don't have one either and I am pretty sure many countries on the
equator won't have one too.
--
Darren New. he just counts the examples.
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Darren New <dne### [at] san rrcom> wrote:
> On 10/29/2011 1:45, Warp wrote:
> > Ten years ago Halloween was completely inexistent in Finland.
> Doesn't Finland have a harvest celebration, tho? Like Thanksgiving and
> Mid-Autumn Festival and stuff like that? That's really all Halloween is,
> except some Christians went and dressed it up in evil icons because it was
> the pagan version of the holiday.
> If Finland does *not* have a harvest celebration, that'll make it the second
> piece of evidence it would be too cold there for my tastes. ;-)
Curiously Finland indeed does not have any end-of-harvest celebration
tradition, even though Finnish agricultural history goes way back to the
medieval ages and beyond.
The major non-Christian celebration of pagan origins still celebrated
in Finland (which even has an official holiday status) is the midsummer
festival, with its own rich traditions (the most visible one of them being
the burning of a bonfire). There have been, of course, other celebrations
in the past, but most of them have been either lost or assimilated into
Christian festivities, Christmas and Easter being the two most prominent
ones. (AFAIK, like in most of the rest or Europe, there were some
traditions and festivities related to the winter solstice, all of which
got either lost or assimilated into Christmas traditions.)
The tradition that mostly resembles Halloween in Finland happens in
Easter, especially in some parts of Finland. AFAIK this is a combination
of two distinct traditions, one of them of Christian and the other of
pagan origin (but neither directly related to Easter):
In some parts of Finland (especially in the East) it was traditional at
Easter time to bless homes by waving catkins at them (seemingly originally
representing palm tree branches), especially by children. The owner of the
home would then give treats to them as a sign of gratitude.
In other parts of Finland Easter time was, for some reason, associated
with witches (I think this is a more international phenomenon than Finland
only).
At some point these two traditions got merged, so we have children dressing
as witches (in some parts boys would dress as their cats) and going from
home to home blessing them with the catkins, the homeowners giving them
treats. It is customary for the children to ask permission first. This
largely resembles the Halloween tradition (but has completely different
origins).
--
- Warp
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On 31/10/2011 7:37 PM, Darren New wrote:
> Doesn't Finland have a harvest celebration, tho? Like Thanksgiving and
> Mid-Autumn Festival and stuff like that? That's really all Halloween is,
> except some Christians went and dressed it up in evil icons because it
> was the pagan version of the holiday.
I beg to differ.
Hallowe'en is a Christian festival, the Eve of All Hallows. All Saints'
Day is a day when the dead are remembered. In Scotland and Ireland it
was thought that the dead could walk on the evening before that day.
Samhain was a harvest festival. The ghosts and goolies did not appear
until after Christianity had been established for several centuries.
As for poor Finland being infected by the American version of
Hallowe’en, I sympathise. I can’t stand the crass commercialisation of
what should IMO be small celebrations. What next, cakes and cards for a
tooth extraction?
When I was young, in Scotland, Hallowe'en was for children. When we went
guising we had to perform a trick, a song or a poem, before we got a
treat. Lots of thought went in to our disguises.
--
Regards
Stephen
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On 10/31/2011 12:37 PM, Darren New wrote:
> On 10/29/2011 1:45, Warp wrote:
>> Ten years ago Halloween was completely inexistent in Finland.
>
> Doesn't Finland have a harvest celebration, tho? Like Thanksgiving and
> Mid-Autumn Festival and stuff like that? That's really all Halloween is,
> except some Christians went and dressed it up in evil icons because it
> was the pagan version of the holiday.
>
Yeah, basically what they did, more or less. Would be, actually, more
accurate to say that, all over Europe, and I doubt Finland was any
different, if there was a harvest festival, and it was pagan, they
*claimed* it was Satanic, involved witchcraft, and therefor, as per the
re-write done in the KJV, one shouldn't suffer such people to live. The
only reason I can see Finland not having such a day is if its a) at a
different time, or b) the Christians where actually successful at ending
them. Mostly, they almost managed that everyplace, but, for various
reasons, new superstitions replaced the old ones, and instead of
celebrating "harvest" they started dressing up to scare off, or confuse,
"demons". One thing Christianity was almost as good at as the Romans was
mangling other people's festivals, distorting their meaning, then
co-opting them for their own purposes. But, in the end, *any* harvest
festival pretty much "is" Halloween, we just ended up with the version
that included costumes and candy.
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On 10/31/2011 1:46 PM, Warp wrote:
> The tradition that mostly resembles Halloween in Finland happens in
> Easter, especially in some parts of Finland. AFAIK this is a combination
> of two distinct traditions, one of them of Christian and the other of
> pagan origin (but neither directly related to Easter):
>
Technically, there is no "Christian" version of it, unless you include
some lame, misplaced (chronologically it can't fit where it got put, if
you follow the Bible's supposed sequence of events), story about Jesus
and some church services attached. Nothing done on the date, other than
the churchy stuff, at least any place I have heard of, isn't 100% pagan.
Its one of the cases where they stole the thing, lock, stock, and
barrel, but their followers refused to give up all the stuff that went
with it.
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Patrick Elliott <sel### [at] npgcablecom> wrote:
> Technically, there is no "Christian" version of it, unless you include
> some lame, misplaced (chronologically it can't fit where it got put, if
> you follow the Bible's supposed sequence of events), story about Jesus
> and some church services attached. Nothing done on the date, other than
> the churchy stuff, at least any place I have heard of, isn't 100% pagan.
> Its one of the cases where they stole the thing, lock, stock, and
> barrel, but their followers refused to give up all the stuff that went
> with it.
When I say "Christian" I'm not exclusively talking about biblical
tradition. I also include everything that has come after it in the
name of Christianity.
Most Christian holidays are wild mixups of biblical, ecclesiastical and
pagan traditions. Curiously, the first one of those sources actually plays
by far the least significant role in most of the cases. (For instance, the
only modern Christian holiday that is actually mentioned and defined in the
Bible is the passover, from which Easter is derived. And even that is quite
completely different in the Bible than it is today.)
Blessing houses by waving catkins at them isn't found in the Bible, of
course. However, I still consider to be of Christian origin because it was,
AFAIK, invented in the name of Christianity, rather than having its roots
in a pagan tradition. (Although it certainly *sounds* like it could have been
a pagan tradition that simply got relabelled as Christian tradition, but
I have not found any reference to this.)
--
- Warp
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Warp <war### [at] tagpovrayorg> wrote:
> In other parts of Finland Easter time was, for some reason, associated
> with witches (I think this is a more international phenomenon than Finland
> only).
> At some point these two traditions got merged, so we have children dressing
> as witches (in some parts boys would dress as their cats) and going from
> home to home blessing them with the catkins, the homeowners giving them
> treats.
Btw, in this case the witches refer to the traditional (both real and
mythological) witches of Lapland (northern Finland), not the pointy-hat
wearing broom-riding witches (although some dress as those as well). In
other words, like this:
http://www.seutulansuuralue.net/upload/virpojat.jpg
Notice the references to traditional rural and lapponian gear, such as
the lapponian hat, headscarf and the metallic milk jug (and overall dressing
like a rural old woman).
In old Finnish mythology Lapland witches had all kinds of supernatural
powers, such as being able to fly and turn invisible. There were many
traditions related to warding them off (such as throwing a knife to the
wind, believed to be a witch trying to steal the harvest).
There were also real people considered to be witches. They served a
role akin to shamans and wise women, who were often herbalists and who
were believed to be able to inflict curses and hexes, as well as remove
them. The traditional witch costume (resembling a rural old woman) is
probably derived from these.
--
- Warp
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Warp <war### [at] tagpovrayorg> wrote:
> Btw, in this case the witches refer to the traditional (both real and
> mythological) witches of Lapland (northern Finland), not the pointy-hat
> wearing broom-riding witches (although some dress as those as well).
Apparently nobody is interested in Finnish culture. Bummer. And I poured
my soul into writing this.
--
- Warp
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